KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Hello friends,

according to the KG51 chronicle written by W.Dierich, during the Soviet routine raid against Armawir airfield (overcrowded by Luftwaffe bombers) at night 4/5.Nov.42 a grand fire was inflicted. Only one bomber from II./KG51
remained undamaged.

Can't find serious losses of II./KG51 in GQM returns and in "Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen". But II./KG51 was removed from Armawir to Bagerowo and reequipped.

Any additional details are interesting (maybe about other units on Armawir airfield also).

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

You are right, Andrey. There is no mention of the 4/5 Nov 42 losses in the Gen. Qu.(6.Abt.) Verlustmeldungen or in the Dierich unit history book.


Armawir (RUSS) (e. Armavir) (44 58 29 N – 41 06 36 E)
General: Einsatzhafen (operational airfield) 168 km E of Krasnodar in N Caucasia. Rated for bombers. A large VVS air base with a flying school in Apr 42. Luftwaffe use from Aug 42 to Jan 43.
Remarks:
28 Aug 42: bombed – 1 x Bf 110 E-3 belonging to Stab/St.G. 77 destroyed.
25 Oct 42: bombed – 5 x Ju 88s from II./KG 51 and 1 x He 111 P-6 from Stab/KG 51 destroyed (4) or damaged (2).
4 Nov 42: a lucky bomb hit on a fuel dump during a night raid by Russian planes destroyed or damaged all but one Ju 88 belonging to II./KG 51 in a massive fire that forced the Gruppe to return to Bagerovo the next day to regroup and await the arrival of replacement aircraft.
2 Jan 43: 10 x Bf 109 G-2s from 7./JG 52 blown up to prevent capture.
10 Jan 43: 3 x Bf 109 G-2s from 7./JG 52 blown up to prevent capture.
Operational Units: Stab/ZG 1 (Jul-Aug 42); I./ZG 1 (Aug-Sep 42); Transportstaffel I. Fliegerkorps (Aug 42); Stab/KG 51 (Oct-Nov 42)?; II./KG 51 (Oct-Nov 42); Stab/KG 100 (Oct-Nov 42); I./KG 100 (Oct-Nov 42); I./KG 76 (Oct-Nov 42); III./KG 76 (Oct-Nov 42); Aufkl.St. 1.(F)/Nacht (Sep-Dec 42); Kurierstaffel 10 (Jan 43)?
Station Commands: Fl.H.Kdtr. E 23/IV (Oct 42, Jan 43).
Station Units (on various dates): Stab/IV. Fliegerkorps (Aug-Nov 42); 1. Flugh.Betr.Kp. KG 55 (Oct-Nov 42); Stab, I.(Betr.) and II.(Feldfernkabel-Bau)/Ln.-Rgt. 34 (Aug-Nov 42); Flak-Geräteausgabestelle 3/VI (Jan 43); 4.(Tel.Bau)/Ln.-Betr.Abt. (mot) z.b.V. 13 (Jan 43); elements of Lw.-Bau-Btl. 4/I (Oct 42); Stab and elements of Lw.-Bau-Btl. 7/XVII (Oct 42); Nachschubbezirk d.Lw. 2/VIII (Sep-Nov 42); Flieger-Geräteausgabe- und Sammelstelle 5/VIII (fall 42 – 1943); m.Flieger-Betriebsstoff-Kolonne 15/XI (c.Oct-Nov 42); Sanitätsbereitschaft (mot) d.Lw. 2/VIII (c.Aug-Dec 42); Sanitätsbereitschaft (mot) d.Lw. 4/XVII (Sep 42).

Larry

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Hello Larry,

thank you a lot, your answer is comprehensive as usual!

Yes :(

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Dear Larry,

additional question:

do you use the NARA docs of the Korück 550 (AOK17) and Korück 531 (PzAOK1)?

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Yes, I researched all of the Korück microfilms from NARA RG 242/T-501 (Records of German Field Commands: Rear Areas, Occupied Territories and Others).

Unfortunately, I did that work 30 years ago, which was before I became interested in Luftwaffe airfields. So there could be something in those Korück records about attacks on Luftwaffe-occupied airfields in North Caucasia. If so, I would have ignored it and not made any notes.

Sorry!

Larry

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Thank you, Larry!

So, hope remains to find something new in Korücks

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Hello Andrey,

I would say Dierich give a wrong date. Not in november but in october Bewegungsmeldungen indicates 20 losses by II/KG51 which based in Armawir at that time. Some of these losses are also in GQM returns.

See also
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=4314

Best regards,

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Hello Igor,

yes, some losses were on 25.Oct, but II./KG51 remained active until 3.Nov. at least, and was relocated to Bagerowo for reequipment on 6.Nov. only.
So the raid on 25.Oct and the slaughter dated by Dierich on 4/5.Nov were different events.

Anyway, I hope to look at the Soviet side of the picture in TsAMO, if it will be possible.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Hi Andrey,

If you go to TsAMO some day, I would be very interested in knowing if Soviet military intelligence - probably VVS intelligence - maintained files on all of the German-occupied airfields in the former USSR from the 22 June 1941 border all the way east to Stalingrad. Each folder would probably include air reconnaissance photos, agent reports, partisan reports, etc., regarding what the Germans were building on the airfield, what the condition of the airfield was, what Luftwaffe units were there and so forth. The surviving German documents for such information are almost non-existent. The Western allies had little or no information either.

Thanks,

Cheers,

Larry

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Hi Larry,

Didn't see such folders in TsAMO to date among many hundreds of folders which I got. But I'll try to find. It is interesting really. I'll let you know.

Not earlier than May or June, if it happens this year

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Thanks, Andrey. I appreciate that. There is no hurry.

Larry

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

As it turned out, successful raid against Armawir was in the evening 25.Oct.42. According to Korück 550 report, 5 a/c were destroyed, 11 heavy damaged, 6 slightly damaged.
It seems GQM returns omitted many losses/damages again.
One more proof that GQM data about ground losses are incomplete.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Great find, Andrey, and many thanks for posting it! Yes, I have found similar cases where the total of destroyed and damaged aircraft on the ground as reported by the local Fliegerhorstkommandantur does not match the number given in the Gen.Qu.(6.Abt.) Verlustmeldungen. In other cases, the ground losses do not appear in the Gen.Qu. lists at all or the number is changed one or more times and the new amended total does not appear in the Gen.Qu. lists. I guess the "bottom line" is that there is no 100% accurate source for losses.

Cheers,

Larry

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Maybe this is some surplus information:
25.10.42:
AE. Armavir; Stab/KG51; He111P-6; 2948; 100; Bombing; -; 4; ;
AE. Armavir; II./KG.51; Ju88A-4; 4018; 60; Bombing; -; 4; ;
AE. Armavir; II./KG.51; Ju88A-4; 2256; 25; Bombing; -; 4; ;
AE. Armavir; II./KG.51; Ju88A-14; 144231; 100; Bombing; -; 4; ;
AE. Armavir; II. /KG51; Ju88A-14; 144242; 100; Bombing; -; 4; ;
AE. Armavir; II./KG51; Ju88C-6; 460013; 100; Bombing; -; 4; ;
On 26.10.42:
Armavir; 7./KG.76; Ju88A-14; 4070; 20; Damage to the chassis; -; 4; ;

Just BTW were the attackers from the "night witches" from 588 NBAP?

Greets

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Thank you, I know it.
So 6 destroyed/damaged a/c in GQM against 5+11=16 in the Korück 550 report (and maybe some of slightly damaged had damages>=5%)

Don't know to date.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

The Ju 88C-6 - WNr. 360013 vs. 460013 - I have same WNr. 460013, but there was no C-6 WNr. in the 460xxx range. The Ju 88A-14 WNr. 4070 is WNr. 144070. It may even be a Ju 88A-4.

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Thank you, Jim!

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Hello Larry,

Yesterday before leaving TsAMO found in the inventory a folder "The cards with description of the airfields" 1943 (5.VA area). I hope to order it in July. Maybe it is something like the folders in question.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Hello Monaco
According to operative report of 4.VA, 7 Bombers of 50.air division of ADD (Long Range Aviation) made the raid in question, not U-2, as in the Dierich's book about KG51.
They claimed 15 a/c destroyed on the Armawir airfield.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42
 

Thanks, Andrey, it will be interesting to find out what sort of information the cards contain.

Larry