Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Hi Guys,

I am searching for crew details and fate of the crew of Ju 88 Wnr.881398 which was involved in a mid-air collision with another Ju 88A-4 Wnr.(88)3527 piloted by Lt. Klaus Dold of 9./KG51 on the 16th February 1943.
Location given 20 km NE of Saporoshje, Ukraine.

I am currently constructing a page of remembrance for Heinrich Hummel who was the Bordfunker of Lt. Dold. Would like to include the fate of the crew from the other Ju 88.

Kind regards,

Melvin

www.aircrewremembrancesociety.co.uk

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Hi Melvin.

The crew of the Ju 88 Wnr.881398 is not named in the loss report . This means the crew was not injured. The Ju 88A-4 9K + PT, Wnr.3527 crashed. The crew Lt. Dold ,Fw.Truczinski(B), Uffz.Hummel (Bf) and Uffz.Diehls (Bs) died.Here are two photos from my collection. The first shows a sketch of the mission of 16.2.1943. The blue cross near Noworossisk show the crashsite of the crew Uffz.Brehm on 19.2.1943.The second photo shows from left zo right Lt.Niklaus Dold, Lt.Richard Pahl (KIA 19.4.1944 England) and Oblt.Johannes Richter (MIA Russia 17.09.1942). This photo was taken September 1942 at Tazinskaja airfield.


Rene

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Many thanks for the info & pics Rene, very interesting indeed. I am quite busy right now but will send you a private message over the weekend.

Kind regards,

Melvin

www.aircrewremembrancesociety.co.uk

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Hi All
Ju 88 Wnr.881398 is this plane converted to a P-1 ?

source http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/a...-10-10-41.html
has this as WNr.1398 as P-1 on -1943-04-19

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Ju 88 1398 was at Merseburg in February 1943 for conversion into P-1 and not in Ukraine. First flight as P-1 at Merseburg on 24 March 1943 .

Regards
Peter

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Peter/gogh

I find it hard to believe WNr 1398 was both w/o (or even only damaged) on 16/2 somewhere in Russia, get back to Germany in the same month, and get converted to a P-1 by the next month, so if the docs you quote from are correct, what was damaged/written off in Russia together with the 88, 3527?

Just curious...:confused::)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

"Luftwaffe in focus" No. 6, page 25, has 1398 not as Ju 88, but Ju 87
(in relation to its loss) but besides the Ju 88 A-4 "1398" was only 50% damaged, but can be wrong number reported.

1398 Ju 88 P-1 Versuchskommando für Panzerbekämpfung (Lw.Kdo.Öst East)
OPS (F) was shot down by <enemy> tank fire (100%) at Woterfitz-See 19.04.1943 (crew uninjured) (reported as Ju 88 P1 1398 in GQM Verband losses 177.) 23.04.43

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Thanks Ed

If I read Axel Urbanke correct, he believes the aircraft which collided with WNr 3527 to have been the 'genuine' Ju 88A-4 WNr 1398.

He also believes that the aircraft which was destroyed from the Versuchskommando für Panzerbekämpfung to have been a Ju 87 (G perhaps?) WNr (87)1398. He thinks there is some kind of clerical mistake behind all this.

That thinking clearly contradicts both Peter and Gogh's thoughts. What exactly does the loss record state? Just Ju 88 or more detailed Ju 88 P-1? I can imagine a typing error if the loss only states Ju 88 but if the loss record says Ju 88 P-1 it is no longer a typo, it is a complete misunderstanding of what had happened, which is much more difficult to do, but not impossible of course.

Since Peter (I think) is quite interested especially in these experimental versions, I wonder what he in fact has regarding the Ju 88 P-1? Sometimes when studying a topic intensely there can be a feeling what is correct and what is not, without any real written proof!

Interesting topic....:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

You can be shure that this was an Ju 88 P-1 with W-Nr. 1398.
See the attached pages of 2 FB's. One gives the aircraft as 1398 and the other as CI+WP and P-1. (1398 had the Stkz CI+WP :)).

The document "Erprobungsträger PAK 40" from 22 April 1943 (source: BA/MA Freiburg RL 36/65) gives this Ju 88 with s/n and Stkz as an (former) aircraft of the "Versuchskommando für Panzerbekämpfung". (Have no copy, only notes.)

The GQM entry for Ju 88 1398 from 1943 must be wrong. I think the entry from 1942 is right.
23.01.42, K.Fl.Gr.606, 40% (BA/MA Freiburg, RL 2 III/1179)

Regards
Peter

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

The loss report from III./KG 51 gives: Ju 88A-4 WNr. 1398

Axel's theory does not match because all the early Ju 87G-1 were in the Werknummer range 10xx and 11xx and non in 13xx.

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Thanks Peter

Appreciate your time and expertice :)
Looks like we can scrap Axel Urbanke's theory then....

Out of curiosity (one of the most common clerical errors I believe is to swap digits), is anything known about WNr 3198? If you say that one went to KG 51, then just maybe.... :)

Cheers
Stig

PS: Thanks to you as well Merlin. We must have written our replies basically at the same time.

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Stig,

WNr. 3198 was a Ju 88A-5, this one was lost by KG 30 on 7.03.41 over England.

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Thanks again Merlin

No luck with that theory either obviously...:o
Oh well, it was worth a try...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss of Ju 88A-4 Wnr.881398 on 16.02.1943
 

Thinking out loud here, how about A-4 2398, where 1 written badly...

1.) Checking first other ´2xxx A-4 (range), this pops up.
2.) --> 0880142398.
3.) --> and possible 142398 had other note attached to it.
But no proof, only circumstantial, so if this was (088014)2398 with other note attached - does that explain curious double number found at Foggia in autum 1943?

1.)-> 142398

2.)-> Ju 88 A-4 III/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4 East) OPS (F) mid-air collision (50%) w. other Ju 88 A-4, W.Nr. 3527 (100%) of same unit, at Saporoshje 16.02.1943 (the other crashed killing four but the crew of this likely landed allright <with 50% damage>) Likely wrong number but real number is unconfirmed -ed]

3.)-> [used on "rebuild" 2398/3984 (q.v.) ?]

4.) 088/3984 Ju 88 A-4 [ +SK] Luftwaffe
[Possibly same: Nr. 984 painted on gondola side, thermo- or pressure (mercury) meter at pilot window, has Recce position FuBI, code xx+SK and white MTO band, Yellow under radiator cowlings, photo says “Breslau near Langenau” and possibly ex-Junkers Werft Breslau (eBay 01.2013; discussion with PAchs 2013)]

5.)- [2398/3984]

6.)- Ju 88 A-4 [F1+DH] I/KG 76 (Luftflotte 2)
Captured ´wrecked´ at Villacidro in autumn 1943 [rep ´A-4 2398/3984 FI+DH´ in A.I.2.(g) Report No. 1354 (dated 04.12.43)]

.... fade to Black ....

-Ed