Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - crashed Ju188 D2 in Poland

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Andyf

19th November 2005 20:38

crashed Ju188 D2 in Poland - help

Hi all!

I would like to find more info (unit, crew, base, flight destination) about crashed JU-188 in Poland
It was Junkers 188 D2 recon version with radar and photo equipment (production at 9 October 1944, nr 150250)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/Andyth/Table.jpg
probably flying from airport Kirkenes (Norway) to Italy, landed on frozen lake Mamry in Poland
in January 1945, becasue of broken engine. AFAIK crew survived. Plane was recovered from water in 1961 and sent to ironworks as scrap-metal ;((((

Could someone help me?

Cheers
Andrzej

edNorth

20th November 2005 00:54

Re: crashed Ju188 D2 in Poland - help

Hi;

This is all I have.
This is the same, right?
..... Ju 188 (mfd 10.1944) Luftwaffe
Force landed into Mamry-Lake, Masuren, Poland, January 1945 - Salvaged in 1961 and scrapped! [Photos: see Jet & Prop 01/2002]

cheers
ed

Andyf

20th November 2005 17:28

Re: crashed Ju188 D2 in Poland - help

Hi Ed!

Thx for support!
Any info about martkings and unit?
Cheers
Andrzej

Andyf

20th November 2005 17:36

confirmation

Hi Ed!

Some photos:
http://www.pg.gda.pl/org/rekin/Photo...skanuj0003.jpg
http://www.pg.gda.pl/org/rekin/Photo...mg_0173abc.jpg
http://www.pg.gda.pl/org/rekin/Photo...skanuj0006.jpg
Cheers
Andrzej

edNorth

20th November 2005 22:56

Re: confirmation

Hello;

Thanks for posting the photos. They are great.
Yes this looks like the same one. I am not at home now and do not have the magazine. I can probably get it in a few days but some one else might help also. However the photos and article in Jet&Prop 01/2002 are, if I remember correctly, cuttings out of an (Polish) newspaper/magzine! And are of worse quality, compared to those abowe.

The number on the ´Conversion Reference´ (sic) plate (´Aenderungstufe 8 ..´) is 150520 but corresponds well to the of delivery other Siebel mounted Ju 188 D-2´s (Recce; Jumo 213 engines) to the Luftwaffe around that time (9.10.1944). No loss in my lists seems to fit to this one (hence I had no number at first). Perhaps someone else might have the answer.

I can but speculate to the unit, but if it had come from Kirkenes it could have been ex- 1.(F)/124, ex-III/KG 26 (unlikely), ex-1.(F)120 or something like that... and perhaps going to (F)/122 in Italy?

cheers
ed

Andyf

21st November 2005 13:00

More pics

edNorth

21st November 2005 20:55

Re: More pics

Hello Andyf;

THANK YOU TOO. To have so many photos of a single plane to study is truly great. This machine appears in Normal Camouflage on upper side (70/71 or 72/73 Greens), Light Blue (65) under. No Wellenmuster is seen and no Stkz. or Vkz. codes but they are obscured by growth after spending 16 years in the water. This plane should have gone to a musem, but few people at the time were thinking of preserving, and no complete Ju 188 example survives (excluding the ex-Ju 188, alias Ju 388 in the USA).

cheers
ed

edNorth

21st November 2005 23:03

Re: More pics

One more thing. There appears no coloured fuselage band. One side letter is possibly x5+xx, x6+xx (large letter) but there might be one small letter in front of the cross (it that is the cross) as x6+xx. Code then possibly F6+xx or A6+xx ?

cheers
ed

Andyf

23rd November 2005 10:41

"camouflage"

Hi Ed!

Thx again for help!

Unfortunately fuselage was in mussels and fischer's nets. I am still searching...

BTW plane was equipped with 2 Zeiss cameras - I will get photos of them soon ;)

Cheers
Andrzej

Andyf

25th November 2005 20:04

hints

From other forum some hints

Quote:

As you know, the Junkers Ju 188 D-2 was a reconnaissance variant of the Ju 188 A-2 and equipped with two 1,750 hp Jumo 213A-1 in-line engines, driving VS-111 paddle blade propellers. Maximum speed was ca. 323 mph. The D-2 often had the nose MG 151 cannon deleted. Cameras were mounted in the rear fuselage underside and normally two ETC bomb racks were retained for carrying drop tanks. Usually, optional fuel tanks were installed in the bomb bay, giving the Ju 188 D-2 a maximum range of up to 2,110 miles.
Intended for anti-shipping reconnaissance, the Ju 188 D-2 had a provision for carrying a FuG 200 “Hohentwiel” search radar.
The Ju 188 seldom equipped entire units, rather they were distributed, as needed, to specialized Staffeln or Gruppen within Ju 88 units (and also some Ju 188 were used in non-Ju 88 units for particular missions). Ju 188 D were known to have served with Aufklärungs- gruppen 11, 14, 22, 33, 100, 120, 121, 122, 123 and 124. They served also as partial equipment with Nachtaufklärungsstaffel 2 and 4 (night reconnaissance) and with Wekusta 51 (weather reconnaissance).
I keep a photo of a Ju 188 D-2 from Aufkl.Gr.(F) 124, photographed at Kirkenes, Norway, in 1945. Ju 188 were operated from the 1.Staffel/Aufkl.Gr.(F) 124. The unit used the code G2 for the Gruppe and H for the 1.Staffel. The third (individual) letter was white or outlined in white. Sadly, there is no code visible on the wreckage. The plate bears the inscription AENDERUNGSTUFE (this means some changings in the equipment after the plane was built or delivered).
AG Luftkriegsgeschichte Rhein/Mosel e.V.

Any comments?
Cheers
Andrzej

Andyf

25th November 2005 20:04

Norway!

Maybe someone from Kirkenes or Norway could help me?
Cheers
Andrzej

edNorth

25th November 2005 20:48

Re: hints

Hi again;

Which other forum? Does this mean that ANOTHER ´Aenderugstufe´ plate has been found in an Ju 188 D wreck somewhere else? The other (general) information I know.

Cheers
ed

Andyf

25th November 2005 22:14

Re: crashed Ju188 D2 in Poland - help

Hi Ed!

I am talking about LBB forum (from luftarchiv.de).
Nothing more, because I placed same request.
Cheers
Andrzej

edNorth

26th November 2005 19:24

Re: crashed Ju188 D2 in Poland - help

Hello again;

I have now Jet & Prop 01/2002; it contains an press cutting from Polish magazine ´Militaria´ from 1997 but also one more. I will post them via private mail :)
Some appear as mirror images on your scans (or are ones in Magazine mirrored!) One more thing: the individual letter ´D´ appears painted on one of the cockpit windows.

cheers
ed

ArtieBob

28th November 2005 01:58

Re: hints

I have no hard data for this W.Nr., but for several W.Nrs, on either side of 150520 assignments were either to ( F)/121 or ( F/)122 . There was a TOCH thread on this aircraft around Jan 4, 1999. I will see if I can dig it out and if it had any more detailed information. That thread did indicate the a/c was shot down by Russian fighters.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Andyf

28th November 2005 11:20

Maps!

Hi Artie Bob!

Thx for offer! Waiting for results of digging;)

PS I have got additional info, that in canopy were found maps for Italy and Yugoslavian area!

Quote:

IMHO maps for Italy and Yugoslavia can be explained as:
- liaison/ferry flight from Mediterranean to Eastern Prussia / Estonia;
- standard equipment of long range recon planes;
- standard equipment of special mission planes;
"Unfortunately" this plane had radar so first idea seems to fit the best.

Cheers
Andrzej

Andy Mitchell

30th November 2005 01:05

Re: crashed Ju188 D2 in Poland - help

AndyF,

Please see below for a list of Ju 188D-2s with werke nummer around "your" 150520.
These are primarily 6(F)./122 with a 3(F)./122 one from (F)120 and another from (F)121.

Can anyone add to this list?

150500 14 Oct 1944 6(F)./122 Ju 188D-2 F6+AP Lost in combat with 72 Sqdn Spitfires in the late afternoon near Bergamo-Serate. One crew member survived but Oblt. B. Freisenhausen, Ofw. J. Franken and Ogfr. F. Regitz were all killed.

150501 18 Oct 1944 6(F)./122 Ju 188D-2 F6+GP Shot down by an American Beaufighter of 417th NFS in the vicinity of Cramona at 1930. Ofw. K. Rautenburg and crew missing.

150512 28 Feb 1945 6(F)./122 Ju 188D-2 Belly landed at Bergamo following a sortie, it sustained 40% damage in the crash. Two crew injured - Uffz. Happel and Fw Steinkönig

150515 30-31 Jan 1945 6(F)./122 Ju 188D-2 F6+EP Crashed 5km S. of Bergamo due to engine problems. Uffz Happel, Fw Steinkönig and Uffz Hänsler were all injured.

150516 5 Mar 1945 3(F)./122 Lkdo,W 3 F Quakenbrück b A JU188D-2 100

150517 Ju188 D2 ??+??, ??.??.?? to Mrz.45, Damaged in cause unknown. while with 1.(F)/120

150525 8 Nov 1944 6(F)./122 JU 188D-2 F6+HP Crashed at Bergamo Fhj. Fw. Schuster and Ofw. Scheithauer injured.

150526 31 Jan 1945 Ju 188D-2 7A+CM 4.(F)/121 Fl.Pl.Sprottau Ran off airfield during practice landing and hit column of refugees 50% Oblt.H.J.Ilbeg reported killed plus twelve refugees

150533 25 Dec 1944 6(F)./122 Ju 188D-2 F6+GP Reported missing overnight 25/26 Dec 1944, 4 crew MIA.

150544 23 Feb 1945 6(F)./122 Ju 188D-2 50% damage in a crash landing at Bergamo.

Andyf

2nd December 2005 12:34

Radar

Hi Andy!
Thx for more info!!!
BTW Do you have any photo shwoing D-2 version with radar equipment?

Cheers
Andrzej

Quote:

Ju-188D-1: Reconnaissance version of the Ju-188A-2; It did not carry a bombsight and the crew was reduced to three. The nose MG151 was usually deleted. Cameras were mounted in the rear fuselage (similar to the Ju-88D and two ETC racks were sometimes retained for carrying drop tanks. Bomb bay fuel tanks were usually installed to increase range.
Ju-188D-2: Same as Ju-188D-1 but with provision for carrying FuG 200 Hohwenteil search radar.

http://www.making-history.ca/ju88pro...u188/188e2.jpg http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW3/ju188-003.jpg

Andyf

2nd December 2005 20:05

Book and units list

BTW Maybe does someone has book
http://www.militarhobbies.com/libros...1/imagen10.jpg
Is inside any list of losses?

Andyf

2nd December 2005 20:06

Book and units list

Andy, could you help me to locate recon units located in January 1945 in nord countries using info http://www.ww2.dk/air/recon.html?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/Andyth/Mamry.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../mapeurope.jpg

Where were located units 6(F)./122, 3(F)./122, (F)120, (F)121. in 1994/45?
Cheers
Andrzej

Andyf

2nd December 2005 23:03

hypothetical flight from Bergamo to Mamry lake

hypothetical flight from Bergamo to Mamry lake
If Ju188 started from Bergamo (Northern Italy), where was one of the bases from which the 122 staffeln operated during 1944 and 45 and landed on Mamry lake.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...yth/flight.jpg
But could we find destination of flight?
Cheers
Andrzej

BTW interesting links:
http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/1945/1945.html
http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/1944/1944.html
http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/Units/1F120.html
http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/Fliegerh...egerhorst.html

Andyf

4th December 2005 20:08

FuG 200

Compare http://www.pg.gda.pl/org/rekin/Photo...mg_0173abc.jpg withhttp://www.luftarchiv.de/bordgerate/fug200_1.jpg

Andyf

4th December 2005 22:36

5.(F)/AGr 122 (Jesau, East Prussia

Quote:

IMHO equipping long recon plane flying over Eastern Front with FuG 200 radar is senseless. Plane with FuG 200 had lower max speed and consumed a little bit more fuel. As you know, long recon planes should have removed all unnecessary equipment. Of course planes used for recon flight over seas should be equipped with FuG 200, but Eastern Front has very little large open water areas.

AFAIK "special mission" planes (like KG 200 etc.) were not equipped with FuG 200, so IMHO we can exclude these planes from our suspect units.

According to Michael Holm's site following units were equipped with Ju 188D-2 at the end of December 1944:

- 4.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 11 - Sprottau
- 3.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 22 - Zabeln
- 2.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 100 - Sprottau
- 1.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 120 - Lister
- 3.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122 - Quakenbrück
- 4.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122 - Bergamo
- 5.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122 - Finow
- 6.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122 - Bergamo
- 1.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 124 - Bardufoss
- 2. Nachtaufklärungsstaffel - Neuruppin
- Wekusta 3 - Oeysand

Villagers claim that Ju 188 landed on January 1945, but I'm pretty far from taking their words as exact date. IMHO it should be rather understood as end of 1945, beginning of 1945.

I think that FuG 200 equipped Ju 188 with maps for Italy and Yugoslavia could be used by 5.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122.
This unit had their base at Jesau airfield - quite close to Mamry Lake. Stab of Aufklärungsgruppe 122 was based on Bergamo airfield in Italy since May 1944. When we link all these info, it fits quite well as liaison/ferry flight from Stab./AGr 122 (Bergamo, Italy) to 5.(F)/AGr 122 (Jesau, East Prussia) made in December 1944. Of course I have no proof for this speculation http://www.airwarfareforum.com/image...icon_smile.gif
_________________
Peter "Mikolaj" Mikolajski

OK, lets try to find more about 5.(F)/AGr 122 (Jesau, East Prussia)!
Andrzej

Andyf

5th December 2005 11:19

5.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122

5.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122 was based on airfield in Jesau, Prussia (close to Mamry lake, on line from Bergamo); Oct 1944 - Dec 1944;

We could think about such option: JU188D2 crashed during flight from Jesau to Bergamo, because end of December 5.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122 unified their equipment to different versions of Me 410 only. They transfered their Ju 188s (2 on stock) and Ju 88 D1s during December to other units. http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/aufkl/b5ag122.html
and in same time in Bergamo baseing 2 sister-units

4.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122 had 6 Ju188D2 on stock
6.(F)/Aufklärungsgruppe 122 (new formed 6.44 in Bergamo!) had 9 Ju188D2 on stock.

or it was classic liaison flight from Stab to one of their Staffeln or vice versa.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163...airfield02.gif

PS I am looking for detailed info about this unit during location in Jesau!
Andrzej

Andyf

21st December 2005 12:39

news

Hi again!

I have got 2 additional photos: Letter D Hakenkreuz and I would like to find what does mean marked letter D on cockpit!?

I have heard rumors, that plane was shoot down by russian fighters during winter 1944/45 and crew probably was dead after landing (or pilot survived), but Germans tried to recover plane and bodies from water during war.

Fate of this Ju188 D2 could be connected with 4.(F)/14 too (bases: Wormditt, 8.44 - 12.44, Rahmel, 12.44 - 3.45)! 4.(F)/14 at the time was based at Wormditt (Orneta, Poland today, abou 100 km west from Mamry lake) and lost two Ju188 D2 in December 1944 "durch Feindeinw." !
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/aufkl/b4ag14.html
http://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/aufklg14.html

Cheers
Andrzej

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