Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

In January 2013 appeared in Poland very interesting text on the analysis of German aviation losses in the war over Poland in 1939. Its author is
Marius Emmerling, "Lista strat materialnych Ob.d.L. kwatermistrza (Gen.Qu.) 6.45. za wrzesień 1939 r. - analiza w świetle niemieckich danych archiwalnych", Lotnictwo nr 1/2013, s. 86-98. Or "List Property Damage Ob.dL Quartermaster (Gen.Qu.) 6. per September 1939 - An analysis in the Light of German Archival Data," Lotnictwo No. 1/2013, pp. 86-98 Or briefly - analysis Luftwaffe losses.

The author conducted a large query the archive for Luftwaffe participation in the war over Poland (issued on this topic 3 books in Poland in 2002-2006). The text is very good, has a number of tables, but the whole is in Polish. This is a big polemic author of Polish authors who write about the loss of the Luftwaffe in the war on Polish.


For those who are interested in the analysis of air loss, looking for information on this topic, it is a very useful text, very solidly made.

I highly recommend

mirekw

PS
The text is illustrated with 13 tables and 22 photos.

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

BTW
see this link:
http://www.magnum-x.pl/czasopismasec/lw/2422

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Thank you, Mirek.




Ed

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

The last sentence of the excerpt (machine translation):
"So now, even in this context, it is impossible to validate as much as 97 Polish fighter wins of 126 collected and formally confirmed by the Polish side at the end of the war."
Do I understand it correctly? Only 29 of the 126 air victories officially confirmed to Polish fighters can actually be matched to German losses?

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

It is wrong translation of course.

In fact during Polish campaigne Polish fighters had destroyed about 49-51 German planes (damages over 60% up to 100 %) according reasarches of M Emmelring in Bundesarchive he put such figures in his books and in this article too. Next about 100-101 was destroyed by Polish A/A.
Total losses done by Polish sideis about 150 planes over 60% damages.

96-97 this is amout of destroyed only by Polish fighters according by Jerzy B. Cynk. He had done such statmeds in his book 12 years ago. He has never done such deep resarchces about LW's losse, and he overestimated Polish fightyer's sucucces in total losses.

126 - this is the amout of credited victories to Polish fighters (total destroyed) done by Bajan's commission in 40-ties in London. For over 40-50 years this was the basic figure of Polish fighter success in IX 1939. This data was created according only pilots claimes, no any German's archive data.

mw

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Please just translate properly the last sentence, so we would know what the author wanted to say. Thanks.

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Text M. Emmerlinga is very good science. It's a great job analytic query based on a deep archive. Unfortunately, it has a very big minus. It is written in a very bad Polish language (a language style banglo-Polish, Horror-Polish). I know that the editorial was devoted a lot of time for it to become the material more readable for Polish readers.
This time it was released in the upstream release, or in horror-Polish.

Reading the many times I caught him behind his head on the wrong style.
I will not go translators. First, I had to translate it from Polish version of M. Emmerlinga to correct the Polish language, and then again in English.
No way!

mw

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

All I've asked was to check the translation of one single sentence (the last one). Never mind.

I don't know why you are complaining about Mr. Emmerling's Polish language skills, because he is not Polish. The very fact that he writes in Polish is commendable.

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

To be honest, Mirek's English is horror-English.

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Dens you are wrong, he was a Polish citisent and had gone to Polish schools - elematary level had passed full, I suppse?

Yes, I know it in 115%, my English is horror, :-)

But is better language the none, and we are talking about Polish language, printed in Polish professional magazine, written in Polish by person who quite long had lived in Poland. He was a Polish citisent before emigration to Germany (born in Katowice in Poland), He was 15 when he had become a German citisent. His wife is Polish too. Too many Polish connection and too many horror errors in Polish.

English is not my mother's language. It makse a difference, a little.

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Hi,

I also have problems to understand the article of Marius because of bad Polish.

Regards

Robert

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Dear Mr.Wawrzynski,
could you exactly explain what do you mean with "horror-Polish" please? As I read your posts I do have the feeling there are 2-3 errors or even more in every sentence.

But I cannot imagine that. It isn`t possible, because the text was checked up by a professional translator Polish-German/German-Polish and teacher of Polish language.

By the way I gave your comments on to the translator. His first reaction was not realy positive about what you are doing here - against several people working with the article and publishing it.

Besides this it makes me funny that people are doing such defamed comments here making errors in their own articles or even books (see for example "Czerwone Gwiazdy", Warszawa 2008 - starting with stylistic and word-order errors on the second page (page 11) of the main text already!) or never published anything so far.

Regards,

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

So what? Because I had not published anything I`m stupid and can`t speak/read Polish?
I think your translator should go back to school.
I will give you two samples (taken from another forum because I don`t have time):
"Skierowanie samolotów do reparacji" or "straty totalne". The second this is a real "German" Polish.

Regards

Robert

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

You don`t like "two words" out of 7000-8000 and therefore the whole article is bad Polish ? You don`t understand anything ?
And you mean you don`t understand the words "total losses" ? Wow!

Just laughable!
As well as your insult against the translator.

Nobody here said you are stupid or you can`t speak/read Polish. But your reaction is realy interesting!
We`ll see how many "bad errors" you will make when you publish.

Regards,

Re: Szkoda czasu, zamknijmy tę dyskusj.
 

Do Pan Emmerlinga
„Co miłe nie zawsze jest prawdziwe, a to co prawdziwe nie zawsze jest miłe”. Lao-tsy

S. 98, III kolumna, koniec.


(…) Odnośnie do maszyn „Sonstige” dokumenty mieszają je raz z morskim (Ob.d.M.), innym razem z łącznikowym („Verbinder”). Stąd zapewne wynikła różnica aż 5 ubytków, z których, po odliczeniu 3 nad terenem nieprzyjaciela, 2 nie dadzą się jednoocznie określić. Niewykluczone wszakże, ze chodzi dokładnie o 2 samoloty zniszczone na własnym terenie po ostrzale OPL, które ewentualnie zostały nieumyślnie pominięte w dokumencie „materialle Abgange”.


Litości! Ratunku!!! K… o co chodzi temu autorowi? Nie wiem? Styl horro-Polish lub banglo-Polish.


Języka polska Panie Emmerling jest ona bardzo trudna. Very bardzo trudna. O tak. Wiem o tym b. dobrze z własnego wieloletniego doświadczenia.


Proponuje zakończyć tę dyskusję, bo nie ma Pan bladego pojęcia jakie poważne błędy językowe Pan czyni. Nie czuje Pan języka i tyle. Styl tragiczny, po prostu horror. Nie ma o czym z Panem rozmawiać, bo to tak jak ze ślepcem o kolorach, albo ze świnią o śpiewaniu. Próżna dyskusja.



Szkoda mojego czasu na to gówno językowe.



Mam nadzieję, że nie czuje się Pan zbytnio urażony.


Serdecznie pozdr.
mw

PS
Takich „kartofli” językowych jest więcej, niż ten jeden przytoczony w Pana bardzo ciekawym merytorycznie i niewątpliwe analitycznym materiale. Help, Hilfe, Ratunku, na pomoc!!!

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Do you understand word "sample"? There are more errors but I don`t have time to write them down.
Aha. Nobody in Poland will say or write "straty totalne" - "straty calkowite" this is a correct word!

Robert

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

OK, guys, let's be cool here. NO PERSONAL attacks like calling someone stupid. Stick to facts and references as needed.

I will shut this thread down if needed.

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

John
there are no personal attack but if you can, do it just now and close this tread. Thanks in advance. Would be better, I think so.
mw

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Robert, it seems you never have read the article! You will find in the text the total losses as: "straty totalne" besides "straty calkowite" (!) and "straty bezpowrotne". Surprised? Me too, but more about your rash and unwise attacks. What are you doing here if you have no time but nevertheless giving statements about an article you do not realy know?!


Mr.Wawrzynski, what level is this ?!
I am very sorry but I cannot detect any errors. What are you talking about?
I only see errors in your comments written in Polish. Is this correct Polish ?!

Best regards,
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

I will not waste more time for such discussion. For arguments see the above mentioned text (by Mirek) - there are at least five errors (stylistic and gramma). You must understand that I have no time to make you a free editing work. Unless you will pay me for that.
Sorry.

Robert

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Sure, no time or should we say no arguments. Maybe even to less errors ...
You wasn`t succesful? What a surprise!
I am sure Mr.Wawrzynski is looking for them hardly with a magnifying-glass.
Good luck guys.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Perhaps you will be more successful with next translator?
Good luck!

Robert

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

The team incl. the translator is very good!
But if you have such big problems with understanding two simple words, maybe you should go back to school instead of attacking people possessing diplomas of their qualifications ?

What language qualifications do you have, Robert?!

Five errors (stylistic and grammar), ha, ha, ha ! Yes of course, done just here by Mr.Wawrzynski. You realy do not have the original!
Ha, ha, ha.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

Mr.Wawrzynski, it makes me so funny reading what you cited and how you did:
(…) Odnośnie do maszyn „Sonstige” dokumenty mieszają je raz z morskimhttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon4.gif (Ob.d.M.http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon4.gif), innym razem z łącznikowymhttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon4.gif („Verbinder”). Stąd zapewne wynikła różnica aż 5 ubytków, z których, po odliczeniu 3 nad terenem nieprzyjaciela, 2 nie dadzą się jednooczniehttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon4.gif określić. Niewykluczone wszakże, zehttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon4.gif chodzi dokładnie o 2 samoloty zniszczone na własnym terenie po ostrzale OPL, które ewentualnie zostały nieumyślnie pominięte w dokumencie „materiallehttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon4.gifhttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon4.gif Abgangehttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon4.gif”.

3 sentences and 8 errors (incl. 3 German words). Okay 5 big errors writing the words off. Great job!
You do not realy believe guys that after this show somebody will be serious what you both comment!
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon13.gif

For readers who want compare the 3 sentences and see the manipulations done here, look to the fragment of the original from my pdf page.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/data:i...//////////////

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

Here it is:

Re: Analysis Luftwaffe losses in IX 1939 !
 

OK, enough is enough. This thread is closed.