Franz Stigler:What is the truth??
 

I saw some exchanges on facebook concerning the new book out on Stigler and Brown and I am curious has to were the truth lies before I buy the book. Did Stigler fakes claims and was he the actual German pilot involved? I tend to distrust people with a monetary stakes in things so I bring my question here. Here is a quote from fb from the authors of the book.

""Prior to the release of “A Higher Call,” the only information available on the Experte Schwarm was all taken from one source – “Fighters Over The Desert” written by Christopher Shores and Hans Ring and published in 1969.
When Shores and Ring wrote their book in the 60s, they had access to a very limited part of the RAF records, a portion of which weren’t even usable. Shores and Ring’s primary source on the Experte Schwarm was Edu Neumann, who was not directly involved in the incident since it was investigated and resolved by Gustav Rodel, the commanding offer of Vogel, Bendert, Stigler, and Swallisch.
“A Higher Call” is the first source since “Fighters Over The Desert” to include new information on the Experte Schwarm, gleamed from daily RAF squadron operation records (much more accurate than the monthly summaries previously used in “Fighters Over The Desert”), interviews with Stigler and Rodel, and close examination of Luftwaffe records that were either not available to Shores and Ring, or were misinterpreted at the time.
The result of this new information is a clear picture, for the first time ever, of just what the Experte Schwarm incident was about, how it was uncovered, who the perpetrators were, and how it was resolved. All of this information compiles an entire chapter in “A Higher Call,” that sets the record straight once and for all.
Franz’s involvement in the Experte Schwarm has caused some uniformed aviation enthusiasts to imply that he made up his encounter with Charlie Brown. That is simply absurd. “A Higher Call” includes all the facts and evidence that proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Franz Stigler was indeed the pilot who escorted the B-17 “Ye Olde Pub” out of Germany on December 20, 1943."'

Historian Peter Randall posted this:

When you have any cloud hanging over a possibility, you can only look at the balance of probabilities. So, weighing things up as we know them, it is beyond doubt the Stigler originally falsified claims. Whether or not he bacame a changed man is of course open to conjecture. The details concerning the damaged B-17 have been known for quite some time and it would be very easy for Stigler to put hiself into any narative and fit the known facts.
Going back to the balance of probabilities and the law of averages, you just have to wonder at what the odds are of Stigler actually having that encounter amongst all the other 109 pilots, including those that did not survive. I tend to put things like this into the same category as the well known Bob Johnson story of the 190 shooting the crap out of him, saluting, then leaving him alone. It's part of the 56th legend, enhanced in print by Martin Caidin and very credible until you read Gerry Johnson's account of the action where he shot a 190 off of Bob's tail whilst a second one hightailed it.
Add to this the well known trait of WW2 fighter vets who very often tell you what they think you want to hear, and you have a situatiuon that very likely will never be fully known. Bottom line, I think Caveat Emptor summs up the situation very well as you can either buy the story or not buy it as you think fit. Bit long winded I'm afraid but such things do need some careful consideration.

Re: Franz Stigler:What is the truth??
 

Peter Randall is an ARSE.

I used to live close to Franz and visited him many times.

He never told anyone but his wife about the tale, and no one else knew about this until the mid-1980's.

Brown had an advert in a pilot's magazine, asking that if the "unknown pilot" was still alive, if he would come forward. Brown did not mention the name of his B-17...just basic details of the incident in the advert.

What details he did give, made Stigler know 100% that it was the B-17 he let go. When he saw the ad, he yelled to his wife, "That's the plane, that's the plane!!".

Stigler then called Brown, and in the conversation, to PROVE that they were talking about the same incident, Brown said, "to make sure we are speaking of the same incident, I will know 100% it was you, if you can tell me the name of my B-17."

Stigler replied with, "Ye Old Pub"...


How the hell would he know that if it was all some made up story? OH!! let me guess...Charlie Brown was in on it to??

Both pilots knew every detail about what happened, and neither pilot said anything contradictory to the other...

I have heard the story sitting down with Stigler, one on one, and knew him personally. He and I had spoken on many ocassions...

Doubt Peter Randall did...

Re: Franz Stigler:What is the truth??
 

I don't think a personal attack is in order here! I knew Franz and Hiya quite well, stayed with them more than once in Surrey, we talked up a storm and I even flew with him in his ME-108 (Nord) C-GRIT. I'm not doubting something happened with the B-17F but putting Franz in the exact time and piece of airspace is iffy at best. The JG27 "Schawrm of Liars" doesn't help in lending credibility. There's lots of fishing stories out there and many make it into print like Bruce Carr's evader story and Roland Sperry Flying Tiger fake aka Capt Incredible. Here's one with a website and that made it into a feature article in Flight Journal magazine.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=13227

Re: Franz Stigler:What is the truth??
 

I also knew Franz and Hiya well, as a matter of fact my uncle was 'Abschussoffizier' at JG 27 when the scandal took place. As for the B-17 story, I heard it from Franz and Charlie over dinner years ago, and it is clear that they did have a combat. As for Franz 'letting him go', I find this quite unlikely, given that the civilian population was getting massacred by carpet bombing, and a Luftwaffe fighter pilot's duty was to shoot them down, regardless of the circumstances, not to mention that the Luftwaffe high command would have taken a dim view of this sort of thing, had they found out. Perhaps Franz was out of ammo? In any event, there were vested interests in this story from many quarters, and a lot of mileage was gained from it, which automatically makes me suspicious. One thing is certain, Franz was a very brave man, as evidenced by the bullet hole in the middle of his forehead, courtesy of a .50 round.

Re: Franz Stigler:What is the truth??
 

I'm a proud member of this forum and have some facts to share about Franz Stigler. I spent a couple of years researching Franz for the book, “A Higher Call,” so I know what I'm talking about.

Franz is one of the most fascinating pilots of WWII, known for sparing a damaged American B-17 and saving the lives of its 9 mine crew. Yet some say this never happened and worse—that Franz Stigler is a liar. They've debated it since 1990 when Franz and Charlie first reunited and publicly told their story. What grounds do these people have to doubt this story for 22 years and running?

Facts? Nope. Data? Nope. Just their opinions. Did they do what historians are supposed to do---due diligence--work---research? Nope.

They have no evidence, yet they persist in debating an issue that has already been proven by a USAF Lt. Col with 30 years of service in military intelligence...

Want some proof, not opinions? Here you go.

To start, German victory records confirm that Franz Stigler's squadron was operating over Bremen on Dec 20, 1943. This is the same day that Charlie Brown bombed Bremen and claimed to have a German pilot fly alongside his wing. The records are online, anyone can see them. You'll see that Franz's squadron leader Willi Kientsch downed a B-24 that day over Bremen. So Franz's squadron was there. Not on the Eastern Front. Not over Italy. Over Bremen.

So Franz Stigler was in the neighborhood. But was he was the one?

The trail of proof begins BEFORE Franz and Charlie reunited in 1990. In 1985, Franz attended the 50th anniversary of the B-17 party by invitation of Boeing. There he met old 8th AF pilots and asked if anyone had heard of what he did, of a German pilot who escorted a B-17 out of Germany. None did, although it gave them a laugh. A camera crew from King TV Seattle found Franz that day and filmed him. Guess what? He discussed Charlie's B-17. Look up the film if you need proof. I did.

But that’s just the start.

To determine if Franz was "the one," or not, historians should have asked the man who was there, the only living person who looked eyeball to eyeball with the German pilot and later staked his reputation on the confirmation that Franz was the one---Lt Col. Charlie Brown. He was alive up until 2008. Why didn’t they ask him instead of slandering the dead?

Charlie Brown made a career in the USAF in military intelligence as an investigator. He served even into the Vietnam War doing covert work there. His decades in military intelligence bred an inherent skepticism in his manner of doing business. FIVE years after Franz appeared on King TV and attended the Boeing reunion seeking Charlie, Charlie began searching for Franz.

Charlie placed an ad in a German pilot's newsletter looking for the German pilot who flew along his bomber's wing and he held a fact back as a secret test. (All of this is described in "A Higher Call.") He wrote in his "looking for" ad that the German pilot encountered his bomber over northern Germany, near Bremen. Charlie gave the date and mentioned that the German flew alongside of him, presumably "out of ammunition." That's it. Charlie said if the German pilot read this and knew the details, to contact him.

When Franz Stigler saw the ad he wrote to Charlie. That very letter has been scanned and published in "A Higher Call." All Franz said in the letter was that he was glad it was worth it and he hoped he and Charlie could someday meet. It was a simple letter. No "lets write a book or tour the world." Just the words, "I'm glad it was worth it." You can read the letter yourself, it's signed by Franz and it's in the book.

When Charlie got the letter he immediately called Franz. In their conversation, Charlie asked Franz to describe his bomber's battle damage. Franz described the damage in detail. This was proof #1 for Charlie.

Some “historians” say "Oh the damage to Charlie's bomber was well known by then, any impostor could have said that." Are you kidding? Charlie's story was obscure in 1990. He was not some celebrated hero. No one knew or cared about his B-17 “Ye Olde Pub.” He was just a veteran with a memory of an incredible event.

Next Charlie sprung the secret question on Franz. "Where did you salute us and fly away?" "Over the north sea," Franz said. That's when Charlie knew Franz was THE ONE. Charlie had never advertised that he and the German flew away from Germany, out over the coast and over the sea where they parted. He had just said the German encountered him "over northern Germany, near Bremen." Yet Franz knew this detail.

This was proof #2 to Charlie. Here are his words, from a letter that is printed in its original form in the book: "My conversation with you totally dispelled any doubt, when you mentioned going over the water (North Sea) with us. That has never been advertised in any of the letters seeking the 109 pilot."

Charlie then sought one last answer from Franz. He remembered that Franz was pointing and gesturing wildly during their flight together. Charlie asked him why?

"To get you to fly to Sweden, instead of trying to reach England," Franz said. "I had no idea," Charlie replied, "Otherwise I would have flown there and would still be speaking Swedish today!" This was proof #3 for Charlie.

Can we prove this "conversation" happened? Scientifically and empirically? Yes. The day after Franz and Charlie spoke, Charlie reiterated ALL of the above in a 4 page letter to Franz, a letter that appears word for word---not retyped---but scanned and printed, with Charlie's signature and all, in "A Higher Call."

The historians who persist on cutting down Franz need to buy the book and read these two letters of evidence. And if that doesn’t sell them, they need to go to YouTube and watch MOH recipient Joe Jackson's film of Charlie and Franz on the day of their reunion in 1990 when both men sat side by side and recounted their encounter for the camera.

And if this doesn't move them, they need to see Franz break down and nearly cry on camera when he says "I love you Charlie." It's free and on YouTube now.

After they see this, these detractors need to stop questioning the honor of these men. Because to persist in calling Franz Stigler a "liar" is to call Charlie Brown an "idiot." Charlie interrogated Franz for himself and for us and for the world. The facts declared: Franz Stigler was the one. Now let the dead rest in the honor they earned.

- Bryan Makos

New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

So much has been said about Franz Stigler's involvement in the Expert Flight (Experte Schwarm) and everyone cites the same source, a few paragraphs written in a book back in 1969.

Does anyone question the veracity of that book? Did anyone ask Franz for his take? Because now, in 2013, new research has show the truth is far different from the long accepted tale.

Those who doubt that Franz Stigler spared the B-17 of Charlie Brown often cite the same reason: “Franz couldn’t have done it because he got in trouble once as a young pilot in Africa, so he’s a liar and can’t be trusted.”

Their statements are based on the 1969 book, which has now been proven to contain many inaccuracies.

Here's the proof:

In his early days as a pilot in North Africa, Franz Stigler was the youngest member of a four pilot flight that wound up in hot water. The flight was named “The Expert Flight” or “Experte Schwarm.” It’s no secret, this is all discussed in “A Higher Call,” a book I helped research.

The Expert Flight was accused by pilots (from competing squadrons) of “over-claiming.” What happened to them? They were given a collective slap on the wrist and a warning to tighten up their claims. Their victories were kept intact and their careers went on.

But what happened to them later, in 1969, seemed far worse. That’s when some historians heard of the story and wrote it up a book called “Fighters over the Desert” (FOTD). The FOTD authors blew the incident out of proportion and turned it into a “scandal.” Why? To make news? To sell books? I don’t think it was malicious. But I do know the FOTD authors based their claims on incomplete evidence.

While researching “A Higher Call,” I read nasty accusations on this forum, leveled at Franz Stigler because of his involvement in the Expert Flight. Every accusation had a commonality—it was based FOTD, a source whose accuracy has never been examined in depth.

I could write pages about the errors in FOTD as pertaining to the Expert Flight but for the sake of time, I’ll dissect just one day of battle—August 16, 1942.

On August 16, 1942, the FOTD authors say that the German ace Stahlschmidt and his wingman single-handedly were involved in "two combats" and battled 19 DAF fighters (11 Tomahawks of 5 SAAF and 8 Kittyhawks of 2 SAAF squadrons), shooting down two of them and damaging another three.

The FOTD authors then imply that after Stahlschmidt's battle, the Expert Flight took off, presumably to join the fight, but that they never actually entered combat. What proof did FOTD rely on to make this claim? They relied on the absence of proof, writing: "no details of any such heavy combat are to be found in British records."

But wait. This statement is false. There are details of combat in the British records. The details are there today, if you go to the British Archives (or just look below). Here's what our research turned up (all of this can also be found in: "A Higher Call"):

Stahlschmidt and his wingman did get into a dogfight with Desert Air Force (DAF) fighters and shot down one (suspected to be from 2 SAAF Squadron) at 9:15 (according to both FOTD and Wood's victory claim database). Shortly before that moment, likely after he first sighted the DAF fighters, he radioed for reinforcements which were scrambled at 9:12. Guess who took off? The Expert Flight. Stigler, Vogel, Bendert, Sawallisch, and a new pilot named Just.

When the Expert Flight arrived, they sighted 12 P-40s from 5 SAAF squadron. This is evident not only based on what Stigler told us, but backed up by the British records. Wait? I thought FOTD said there were “no details of any such heavy combat”?

Yet we found in the 5 SAAF Sortie Report that their squadron was jumped at approximately 9:30 by "6 plus Me 109F's." The Sortie Report went on to state that 5 SAAF lost one P-40 and had three damaged during the ensuing dogfight, all occurring at approximately 9:30.

This timing is particularly important since Stahlschmidt's final claim that day came at 9:15, proving that he was not responsible for shooting down or damaging any of the 5 SAAF aircraft. Who did? Franz Stigler and the Expert Flight.

Which pilots from the Expert Flight shot down or damaged aircraft that day will never be fully confirmed. However in talking with Franz Stigler (something the authors of FOTD never did) he firmly believed he downed two aircraft in the swirling air battles on August 16th. In fact, his first claim occurred at the same time 5 SAAF reported being jumped.

In addition to being wrong about the air battle on August 16, FOTD takes their claims further. In adherence with the view that the Expert Flight “invented” their account of combat that day, FOTD relates a story wherein Stahlschmidt claimed to have seen "the aircraft of II Gruppe [Expert Flight] shooting off their ammunition into the Desert sands in the course of a mock dogfight."

When we asked Franz about this he laughed and said "Of course we did, the new guy had some ammo left over so Vogel had him "shoot the shadow" as we often did to practice gunnery."

August 16th case closed.

Did Franz Stigler and the Expert Flight pilots over-claim during WWII? I’d bet most fighter pilots did in WWII. Even the great Stahlschmidt over-claimed on August 16th if you study the records. But did anyone make up victories that day or tales of combat as the Expert Flight is often accused of? The records say that all of those men entered life and death combat. And if FOTD's August 16th reporting is so wrong, you can imagine what the days of lesser significance look like.

The authors of FOTD held the legacy of brave men like Franz in their hands and in my opinion, were sloppy in the way they handled the Expert Flight. They didn’t interview Franz or his commander, Rodel, or the living members of the Expert Flight who were still around in 1969, or if they did, they didn't publish it since not a single interview with any of these pilots appears in the back of the book along with the others. They made serious implications without using complete records. When I asked one of the FOTD authors he confirmed that he never had full access to RAF records in the first place.

This leads me to believe this misinterpretation of history was unintentional. The FOTD author struck me as a nice fellow. But still, look what damage that book has done.

There are people on this forum who now call Franz Stigler a "liar," "fraud," and a "fake who can't be trusted,” thanks to FOTD. To them, I say, look at the facts I just presented. There’s two sides to every story. But the records don't lie, when you care to look for them.

- Bryan Makos



http://www.valorstudios.com/Images/a...AAF-report.jpg

Re: ... the Experte Schwarm
 

Your long post on this subject made me fish out Prien's Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, Teil 8/I Einsatz in Mittelmeerraum November 1941 bis Dezember 1942. For those that might own this one, I'll refer you pp184, 235-240 and 272.

Prien covers the disproportional claiming of "den sogenannten 'Expertenschwarm'". During the period in question (August 1942), I Gruppe reported 22 claims, the II Gruppe 78 (the 4. Staffel, 65 of these, with the lion's share of 63 to Vögl - 10, Bendert - 23, Sawallisch - 18, and Stigler - 12), and the III Gruppe only 3.

Prien also includes the times of the 16.August claims. Stahlschmidt of 2./JG 27 claimed two P-40s, at 08:15 and 08:25. The 4.Staffel pilots made twelve claims begin at 08:26 and finish at 08:40.

Three days later (19.Aug.), Erwin Sawallisch crashed fatally during a test flight over the sea. Certainly his career did not "go on."

After this Schwarm was broken up, the 4./JG 27 made only 13 claims during the remainder of their time in North Africa.

I try not to "close" cases in history, especially when considering how little documentation is available, or has yet come to light, and may never. I enjoy changing my mind about things I thought I already knew about. I also mistrust human memory, but I'm old. Not quite old-enough to have studied with Pierre Bayle, but almost.

GRM

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Book plug anyone....?

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

One reason why Chris ,me Giovanni Frank Olynk and others are doing a re write of Fighters Over the Desert, is because a lot of data has become available since 1968. Back then no op sums intel sums, readily available combat reports, MRES data, casulaty reports and of course Ultra wasnt public knowledge. Nor was much info from the Italian side

In summary, we know pretty well who the 4 staffel schwarm was in combat with on all ocassions in August 42. The 5 SAAF combat on 16th August we are aware of. I do note claiming 4 P-40's and 8 Hurricanes in 15 minutes for the actual result of 1 P40 shot down and 3 damaged is overclaiming at a reasonable level...for Bryans information Hans Ring communicated with a extensive number of JG 27's pilots over the course of preparing the book. Indeed Gustave Rodel attended the launch in London, At the time he was still in the Air Force and flew over for the launch in a Starfighter, and after the launch flew back in it.

The other comments about Chris and Hans Ring are quite silly, and not worth commenting on. The losses of the SAAF are clearly mentioned for example in FOTD. What was not available then, was enough evidence to tie 5 SAAF in the 4 Staffel. For the 69 claims made by the experte schwarm in August my current evidence is they shot down or damged ten to 12 aircraft. Bryan could do a comparison, on the evidence available for Stahlschmidts claims, rather than just the 16th, and I am sure he will find that there are other double or over claims, but a lot of confirmed victims, based on the evidence at a far more substantive degree then by the expert schwarm. The experte schwarm are an enigma as all of the main players could and had shoot down aeroplanes. GRM summed them up "numbers" pretty well.

A small element of JG 27 did it again a year later, making highly dubious claims over Albania, Greece and the Greek Islands. There were in conbat on most occassions, but the claims made were simple so far over and above losses.

No one from Chris's team has made any comment on the subject of the recent book, as its outside of what we have studied and I cant because it has yet to get to Australia. By the way Bryan, as Chris told you he had acess to what he was allowed to see at the time. Forty years later things have changed

I am still willing to learn, I mean forty years of researching the Desert Air War on and off isnt enough.

Regards

Russell

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

...You must be talking about IV/JG-27 and the "amazing" scoring streak of Ofw. Heinrich Bartels.

Re: Franz Stigler:What is the truth??
 

Thanks Bryan!

That is exactly what I was talking about...

;D

Mike

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Bryan, I'm supposed to be a moderator round here but words like the following come close to provoking an immoderate response:

The authors of FOTD ... in my opinion, were sloppy ... They didn’t use complete records. When I asked one of the FOTD authors he confirmed that he never had full access to RAF records in the first place.

I hope it isn't news to you that almost every historian who ever lived didn't use "complete records" because the records are almost never complete, or if they are there's still much they can't tell you. You do the best with the evidence you have. By your argument no Luftwaffe history should even be attempted because almost all its records were destroyed.

You may also have noticed that we are crossing a threshold now: many more documentary sources have been discovered or declassified while the number of living participants rapidly reduces. Whatever the inevitable imperfections of work done 40 or more years ago, that pioneering effort is what all contemporary researchers build on.

Still, you have probably managed to bring the version of events in "Fighters Over The Desert" to the attention of far more people than would have seen a copy otherwise.

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

To this day, many people believe that ALL Germans were Nazis...and therefore "any" act of humanity cannot be true.

The Allies had a great propaganda machine, as with the Germans. All we hear or see on TV today is how evil all Germans were, and how good the Allies were...and the moment any event of humanity and kindness is brought to the light, the first reaction is, "that cannot be true"...

The same propaganda has trained most to believe the Swastika means "Nazi", when in reality, it means "Good Luck". It has so for thousands of years, in MANY cultures, which is why the Nazi Party adopted it to being with. But...can my next door neighbor who moved from India to start a better life in the US hang a Swastika above his door? No...because people ONLY identify this 1000+ year emblem with a 6 year time period of war, when ALL Germans were apparently "all evil and inhumane".

When the Hood was destroyed by Bismark, there was an immediate resounding joy from the Germans. The exact same joy the Brits felt when they sunk the Bismark in revenge.

However...almost immediately, both sides felt a sudden rush of extreme sadness...human emotion...due to the amount of people that were just killed or are now floating helplessly in the water - regardless of what side they were on.

In the heat of the moment, they were fighting the ship...not the many 19 year old kids who were manning the radio, aiming the guns, or who were the resident cooks.

German sailors saved Allied sailors from the water...and Allied sailors saved German.

This is a proven fact.

The event with Stigler is no different, and not at all as "uncommon" as one would think.

There was a great respect and camaraderie between pilots (even today), and I doubt any of you claiming "the event could not be true", have ever fought in war, or been in a 6 year non-stop air battle.

Regardless what "side" those were on in WW2, or what events transpired, we are all human beings with emotions. Depending on the situation, someone will act or react - many people will do so differently from one another.

Stigler made a decision, based on human emotion.

Stigler did not "escort" the B-17 to the North Sea to see him home...but rather flew next to him because in his mind...with the blood, chaos, and damage done to the B-17, FlaK or anyone else downing it would be like "shooting at a parachute".

I bet if the story's were reversed, and it was a US pilot initiating an "Act of kindness" towards a German, no one would ever be questioning it.

Mike

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Not keen to fuel in the debate, but I'd like to understand why, if this was such a common practice, this fact was reported by Lt Stahlschmidt to his Kommandeur?

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Gentlemen,

By all means, don’t get the wrong impression. In my prior post I should have been clear—I'm not trying to pretend the Experte Scwharm didn't exist or didn't overclaim. It clearly happened. In fact, in "A Higher Call" we devoted an entire chapter to discussion of it. And it’s honestly a fascinating bit of history.

And it’s based on new research. Of course, G.R. Morrison, I've had access to all the same data that Prien/Shores/Ring reported so those victory tallies aren't new to me. The victory claim times I used for August 16 are from Wood's compilation which also match FOTD.

Nick, when I mentioned having the "complete records" I'm referring to the RAF Form 441, which are the sortie reports for each squadron, filled out after each mission. FOTD used the form 440 which was the monthly summary. I consider the use of both documents together as "complete records" since you can't get any more specific than the form 441.

My goal with this post was to make one indisputable point - on a day when the Experte Schwarm has been accused of “inventing combat,” the Form 441 records show they were in fact in combat with 5 SAAF.

The records confirm this. And Russell said it best, "all of the main players could and had shot down aeroplanes."

My urging is that people consider first hand sources for this story, which are available now. It appears that everything written to date about the Experte Schwarm was devised without talking to a single pilot involved in the incident. Did anyone consult with Roedel (who handled the investigation of the Experte Schwarm), or Stigler, or Bendert, or Vogel who were all alive well into the post war years? I think not.

For "A Higher Call," we did rely on first hand perspectives, from Stigler and Rodel. And we discovered a new perspective. The Expert Flight may have been a flight of 4 but it often operated in rottes (elements). And who’s to say that each pair did not behave differently? Franz said they did.

Franz and Sawallisch would fly as wingmen at times, just the two of them. Whereas Vogel and Bendert would fly independently at another time. Russell can surely show the RAF records on Aug 10th that prove Franz and Sawallisch were in combat with 4 SAAF, there's detail of the combat and planes being downed and damaged. Whereas later that same day, Vogel and Bendert, flying alone, attacked 2 SAAF and RAF 80 and both squadrons reported "no results" and "ineffective attacks." Despite this, Vogel and Bendert each claimed two victories.

Franz and Rodel both held true to the statement that the impropriety came from the top, down. Vogel was the acting Gruppe leader at the time. Bendert was one of the highest scoring aces in the desert. Swallisch was new, transferred from the Eastern Front. And Franz was still a rookie, having been in combat just over three months.

Here's what Rodel's interview had to say about Vogel/Bendert:

“I do not think that it was a matter of intentionally lying about their victories, but it was proven to have been gross negligence in claiming victories simply because a pilot shoots at an aircraft, maybe getting hits, but not confirming the crash or the pilot getting out. The situation stained all involved in the Group and that flight, and even Stigler and I were questioned. Bad business really.”

Up to the day of his death, Franz truly believed in his victories. Roedel believed in them as well. So did Galland who allowed Franz to join JV-44. And Franz went to JG-27 reunions up to his dying day and never received anything but camaraderie and praise from his comrades who were there.

Why is it impossible for us 65+ years later to be open to the possibility that Franz Stigler flew and fought with honor? Yes, he found himself in a flight with two of the most senior pilots of the desert, who engaged in excessively lose claiming. Why does that make him guilty? Isn’t that guilty by association? And is that fair?

Russell, I’m so glad to hear that your team is working on a new version of FOTD that will include all the RAF records now available. I’ll be more than happy to send you the materials we’ve compiled including both Franz and Roedel’s commentary, what do you say? It’s my great hope that a fair and honest accounting can finally be presented, using all sources available.

- Bryan

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

OK, guys, interesting discussion here, which is why this forum exists.

However, some posts are bordering on personal attacks, which are not allowed. Be VERY careful and keep the discussion strictly limited to facts, or, if speculation, clearly label it as such. Do not massage "facts" to fit your speculation.

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

FOTD was a FANTASTIC, incredibly well researched book for it's time (1969); a pioneering work in the gritty details of aerial combat for an entire theater of war over an extended length of time; given the scope of the work it is inevitable that there were errors -perhaps some were glaring. But SHAME to anyone who suggests this was a poorly reaserched effort.
Aside from the additional details of combats included in this thread, what REALLY interests me here are indications that a revised edition of FOTD is in the works; I've heard rumblings of this for more than a decade; and here we have confirmation. I'm dying to know when this might see the light of day!

Thanks

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Rob,

The book HAS BEEN RELEASED. A previous thread on this forum led me to that fact and I have an order placed with a mate of mine who runs his own specialist book and model shop. I am eagerly awaiting its arrival as we speak - just as Russell is.

It will be good for us all to read and update our own personal researches/knowledges/databases and provide ourselves with some basis of documented facts.

...Certainly a whole lot better than simply putting lists together based on who has said what about certain pilots over the chinese whispers of the internet.

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Rob,
Check the thread "New Books from Chris Shores" in the Books and Magazines section of TOCH (now on page 3), to see the scope of The Mediterranean Air War. Volume one was published last June, volume two should appear "sometime" this year.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Hi
well they were fighting for the -third Reich..Nick;

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Pardon? I was writing about authors and researchers, who are you talking about?

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Regarding the 20 December 1943 incident, I found the story dubious when the presented proof was that Stigler remembered the name of the attacked bomber. Aircraft names were certainly not easy to read for a foreign pilot that has something else to do, not to speak of remembering an odd English expression for 45 years.

On the other hand, the discussion as reported in this thread by Bryan seems to me a far more serious base for the story.

As for FOTD, all that I have to say is that I still use it as one of my sources 40 years later. Apart from personal testimonies, it is the oldest book I use. I will still try to confirm and validate what is written inside it, and add data from other available sources, but I do the same for books written today.

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

I have one small question on the 16 Aug 42 combat, can we be sure that all 3 Tomahawks were damaged in the air combat and none by the “intense and accurate light and heavy Ack/Ack”?

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

If I recall correctly, Stigler already spoke English at this time...and he flew next to the B-17 for an extended peiod of time - quite long enough to see the name. Regardless, if you were involved in such am incident, I "guarantee" you would remember the name of the aircraft...regardless of what language you spoke - "Ye Old Pub" is not exactly a hard name to remember, even if one had no concept of English.

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

These two veterans obviously knew things about the 20Dec43 incident that only they knew on talking and the German side would not have any report on the incident. If there was any Luftwaffe pilot or someone they knew had knowledge of this incident being false they would have stepped forward by now. The other occurence was taken care and any of you that has stepped into a "bear trap" knows not to go there again.

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Did Franz Stigler did a few years ago?

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Franz Stigler:What is the truth??
 

This is a blast from the past and might be TOTALLY uncalled for by me, but Randall needs to check his facts--AFAIK, it was JG26 that bounced The 56th FG the day Bob Johnson had his encounter, and according to the JG26 Diary (IF my memory is correct) they didn't suffer any losses. I have no idea who Gerry Johnson was shooting at.

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

I don't think there's any question that Stigler and Brown were honorable people, I knew them and can vouch for that. However, as I have posted in related threads on the activities of certain members of JG27, there are a lot of unanswered questions. I tried to clarify some of these with Edu Neumann many years ago, and even forwarded copies of documents from my uncle's archives. I got a very gruff 'piss off' from him which I found very telling. Obfuscation was the order of the day back then, which begs the question: why?

Re: New information on the Experte Schwarm
 

Perhaps they don't want to speak ill of an old, departed comrade? I remember reading Axel Urbanke's 'Dora Era' book on III/JG54, and found some of the info/perspective was kind of different than even the 'thumbnail' information provided in the Caldwell JG26 War Diary (Heilman's landing at a captured airfield; Dortenmann's drive to get that Knight's Cross); perhaps a Non German will write stuff that a 'former comrade' will not?