IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Gentlemen,

two interesting finds from a russian web site which might be still unknown to some. The location of the airfield is not identified but very likely somewhere in central or southern Brandenburg province (according to the source (1st Belorussian Front, May 1945) and the markings of the Bf 109). I would love to see a higher res copy of both photos. Can someone help or has any additional info?

Sources: http://www.russiainphoto.ru/photo/ph...?photoId=32960, http://www.russiainphoto.ru/photo/ph...?photoId=33009

Regards,
Christian

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Many thanks Christian, for your find...

Unfortunately not much info to add for the location, except this is a 14./JG 4 plane which, according to Michael Holm's site, was based at Mark Zwuschen until 14 February 1945.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...ader/JG4-R.htm
According to this link, 14./JG 4 went on to fight in the Berlin area from Jüterbog until disbanded in April 1945. Could this be Jüterbog?

Cheers
Marc

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Hi Marc,
I just checked and found that FlH Jüterbog - Altes Lager is indeed a valid possibility. The residential house visible in the background of one photo (a not so common occurence so close to an apron) matches the location and style of such buildings in the northern corner of Altes Lager. I know this is just weak evidence, but given JG 4's and 1st Belorussian Front's area of operation, who knows?

Regards,
Christian

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Very interesting pictures indeed. Mark, no idea of the colour of the "15" and the "~"? The border seems to be another colour than white. If you can assume the Stuka's individual letter to be yellow, this border could be yellow too. Any comments?

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

It's Black 15 of IV./JG4 and Ernst Scheufeles Black 2 from the same unit had yellow outlines as well, that according to the crashed enemy aircraft report.

Another photo exists of Black 15, it's in Mombeeks second volume on JG4 and the photo is taken just as the aircraft is being blown up. The WNr. is hard to distinguish in that photo but given the details in these photos it's likely to be an Erla built aircraft.

Cheers / Anders

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Hi Anders,
I think I know which photo you are referring to, but would you mind uploading it here, so we can compare?

Regards,
Christian

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Here we go Christian!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. (6)10 6.. "Schwarze 15", IV./JG 4, April 1945. Source: internet. Given the partially legible W.Nr., this might be a WNF Diana built machine. Published in Mombeek 2001, vol. 2, p. 144, albeit with a wrong caption. Downloaded 31 May 2008.

Cheers
Marc

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Marc, check my comments at Flickr, (and here) there is not much that points to Diana but lots against, apart from what I've already mentioned I believe the placement of the WNr is wrong for Diana as well. I haven't checked my references yet though.

Cheers / Anders

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Anders,

Thanks for the precision concerning the yellow contour for the tactical markings within this Staffel and thanks for your IDeing of that second pic! Eagle Eye! . As for this being an Erla bird, I'm no that sure: it could rather be a WNF built machine, which would explain all the camouflage and Balkenkreuz details we can see. As for the subtype, well, no positive proof is to be ascertained as the first number of the W.Nr. can't be made out...

IMHO, the camouflage elements do speak out for a WNF G-10 though, but not from Diana Tisnow WNF.

A pity that the three quarter rear view of that plane is not in higher resolution: the W.Nr. is to be seen above the rudder tab actuation bar....

Cheers from Amman;-))
Marc

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Ah yes, that's the one. Thanks Marc. I am pretty sure this photo is a montage though, and not a particularly good one too. But it could show the port side of the same plane. Does it come from a russian source?

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Nice timing, posted at the same moment... :) I agree that the camo looks a little like WNF but there's no chin bulges. The only aircraft built by WNF with a tall tailunit were the G-10's which means that the combination of lacking chin bulges and tall tailunit rules out the WNF option.

I suspected that you were away somewhere, Amman sounds nice and warm. :)

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Nah, UNESCO Conference in a hotel it means...And outside temperature varies between 10 to 20 degrees Celsius;-))

As for our bird, didn't WNF Wiener Neustadt produce other planes then the know W.Nr. 610 - 612 blocks? Can't go back to my library as it is 3000 miles out...

Cheers
Marc

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

The other WNF WNr block with tall tail 109's was the 77xxxx series but those were G-10's as well which this one cannot be unless it's the Erla variant.

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Hello Guys,

a little photoshoping will show the distinct "GM-1"-hatch just above the code. So this bird is an Erla-built G-10 or G-10/R6.

The a/c has two features, which may narrow the possible manufacturing date: underwing Balkenkreuze of the old style and a non-retractable high tail wheel. Perhaps Rasmussen can help us.

Greetings

Carl

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Thanks Carl!

Anders, you owe me a beer, as I owe one to Carl;-)). Inch Allah Rasmussen will drop in...

Cheers
Marc

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

What? I've been saying Erla all along! I'm not sure about the significance of the hatch though, I thought all those hatches were present on Erla built G-14's as well? I believe that the early underwing balkenkreuz was gone when the G-10 production began but I'm not sure. I'm leaning more and more towards Erla built G-14.

Meanwhile I'll hold out on that beet Marc ;)

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Ah Anders,

you're battering our G-10 stronghold then:p
Ok, let's move towards the keg of beer for the Erla G-10 or G-14 contest:D

Who will be the referee then;-))

Cheers
Marc

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Ok, just to avoid confusion, I've checked some references and all visible hatches on Black 15 can also be seen on regular Erla built Bf109G-14's. The old style outlined cross on the undersurface of the wing does not rule out an early Erla built G-10.

Looking at the light conditions in the photo I think the large beule of a G-10 would have been quite clearly visible. So, it's got to be an Erla built Bf109G-14. JG4 flew the type until the end...

Cheers! / Anders

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

;)Keg is ready...in Amman:D

Thanks and cheers
Marc

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Some circumstantial evidence that it is likely an Erla machine: in what losses we have for the gruppe through March '45, Erla machines outnumber Mtt 4 to 1.

Re: IV/JG 4 Bf 109 captured by Soviet forces 1945
 

Thanks John for your information.

Cheers
Marc