Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello,
Anyone know who the pilot of 19 Squadron's Spitfire, K9820 was on 16th January 1939 when it crash-landed at Duxford ?

Other Spitfire's pilots names please, are:
K9798 on the 18th April 1939.
K9859 on the 9th May 1939.
The serial number of the Spitfire piloted by Airman pilot, Sgt. J. H. Potter on the 20th May 1939 when he crash-landed ?

Pilots who were I beleive with 19 Squadron in April/May 1939 included:
Sqdn/Ldr. H.I. Cozens; Flg/Off J.A.G. Gordon; Pilot Officers, M. C. F. Mee, A. J. Banham, D. Genders, E. H. Thomas, W. G. Clouston, T. G. Pace, L. C. Withall, J. B. Coward, A. I. Robinson and R. B. Pearson.
Of the seven Airman pilots I beleive one other was Sgt. D.G.S.R. Cox. Who were the five others please ?

For 1940
K9811 on the 24th January 1940.
K9800 on the 7th March 1940.
K9821 on the 28th May 1940.
R6897 on the 26th August 1940.

And to round off.
The serial number of the Spitfire piloted by Flg/Off. G. E. Ball who was WIA on 26th May 1940 ?

Many thanks,
Alex

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Officers and Airman Pilots with 19 Sqn on 1st Jan 1939 or later were:
S/Ldr H I Cozens - Squadron Commander
A F/Lt J A G Gordon - A Flight Commander -> F/Lt 23 Jan 1939
F/O A J Banham - B Flight Commander -> A F/Lt 2 Mar 1939
P/O W G Clouston - Adjutant til 20 Mar 1939 -> F/O 28 Mar 1939
P/O E H Thomas -> F/O 10 Apr 1939 -> Posted to RAF Colledge Cranwell 24 Apr 1939
P/O T G Pace -> Posted Turnhouse 17 Feb 1923
P/O L C Withall -> F/O 12 Apr 1939
P/O J B Coward
P/O A I Robinson
P/O G L Sinclair
P/O G E Ball
P/O A J A Llewellin
P/O G W Petre
P/O B G Piddocks -> Posted to Catterick 20 Mar 1939
P/O F N Brinsden -> Adjutant 20 Mar 1939
P/O G C Matheson -> Posted in from Catterick 20 Mar 1939
A P/O D V S Evans -> Posted to Middle East Command later joining 112 Sqn 17 May 1939
A P/O R Marples -> Reposted 19 Sqn for Flying Duties 8 May 1939
A P/O L A Scott -> Posted to Middle East Command later joining 112 Sqn 17 May 1939
P/O J B Sanderson -> Posted to Middle East Command later joining 112 Sqn 17 May 1939
Sgt Pilot J H Coleman
Sgt Pilot G C Unwin
Sgt Pilot H Steere
Sgt Pilot J A Potter
Sgt Pilot P S Gunning

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

From Spitfire Squadron, by Dilip Sarkar
Flying personnel no 19 squadron September 3, 1939

S/L H.I. Cozens AFC (CO), P/O F.N. Brinsden (Adj)
F/L L.C. Withall (OC "A" Flight), F/L A.J. Banham (OC "B" Flight)
F/O Clouston, T.G. Pace, J.B. Coward, A.I. Robinson, G.C. Matheson,
P/O G.L. Sinclair, G.E. Ball, A.J.A. Lewellyn, G.W. Petre, L. Marples, M.D. Lyne, L.A. Haines, J.H. Browning,
F/Sgts H. Steere, G.C. Unwin,
Sgts J.A. Coleman, J.H. Potter, P.S. Gunning, T. Boyd, A. Bruce.

According to Aces High, Cox joined no 19 Squadron on 23 May 1940.

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello Paul and udf_00
Many thanks for the names and refs, it is most useful.
Can any of the names be matched to the Spitfire serials listed ?
Thanks
Alex

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

The ORB has no info on any accidents or Spitfire incidents upto Sept 1939 best bet may individual record cards

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

I can only add a little:

The pilot of R6897 was P/O Eric Burgoyne.

John Engelsted.

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello John,
Many thanks for the answer on R6897.
What was your reference please ?
Alex

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

From Spitfire squadron, by Dilip Sarkar

Appendix II ( losses 1939-09-03 to 1941-06-20 )
26.05.40 L3198 F/O G.E. Ball, aircraft damaged an pilot slightly wounded in combat with Bf109s near Dunkirk.
K9811, no name
K9821, Clouston mid-air with K9854, Ball, 1939-10-06
Other serials : nothing !

P112 :
On May 28th, 2nd morning patrol "...All of our aircraft returned but F/O Petre had altimeter shot away by HE bullets and small pieces of metal entered one of his legs...".

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Sgt J A Potter (not JH) was piloting Spitfire K9857 on 20th May 1939 when he crash-landed at Duxford.

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Source for R6897: Air Britain Aeromilitaria 132

John

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello All,
thank you for the fullest possible replies.
Much apreciated.
From what we now have, or rather have not,

16-01-39 - K9820 no name.
18-04-39 - K9798 no name.
09-05-39 - K9859 no name.
24-01-40 - K9811 no name.
07-03-40 - K9800 no name.
28-05-40 - K9821 no name.

To this list I would like to add the following.
24-03-41 - P7429 no name, pilot baled following collision Fowlmere.
31-07-41 - P7425 no name, pilot baled Albury, Herts.
05-09-41 - P8277 no name, a/c overshot hit hedge Matlask.
12-10-41 - P7971 no name, a/c undershot at night & hit trees Horstead Hall, 1m SW of Coltishall.
02-11-41 - P8384 no name, pilot baled low altitude Manor Farm, Wood Norton, Norfolk.

To round off, I have seen in FCL vol 1 and also in the revised vol that for the 27th May 1940, N3237 has P/O. Wilson as pilot who DoW. But should it be P/O. P.V. Watson or was he in another Spitfire who's serial as yet remains unknown ?
Derek Palmers book does not mention P/O. Wilson in the Roll of Honour pages except for a Lieutenant C. L. Wilson (1919).

Many thanks,
Alex

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

16-01-39 - K9820 no name. -> This was P/O A.I.Robinson. Night landing. Landed in bad visibility, retracted u/c to avoid overshoot. Skidded on nose

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

24-01-40 - K9811 no name - Can't help with 24-01-40 but are you aware this Landed with u/c not fully locked down on 29.8.39 when flown by P/O M.D.Lyne (his first solo on type) at Duxford and repaired on site?

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

07-03-40 - K9800 Sorry can't help but I have two addition accidents for this



19 Sqn Duxford. Cat C. Night landings. Heavy landing u/c collapsed 13.1.39, F/O A.J.Banham.

19 Sqn Duxford Cat C. First solo on type. Undershot and struck building inside boundary of drome 29.8.39, P/O J.H.Bowring.

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

28-05-40 - K9821 no name.

Sorry but this had a minor collison in the air with K9854 (flown by P/O GE BALL) on 6.10.39 while being flown by F/O WG CLOUSTON

Both aircraft force landed at Newmarked race course amd pilots OK

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

However can help with some others

24-03-41 - P7429 no name, pilot baled following collision Fowlmere.
Collided in air with P7379 near Fowlmere P/O Anderson safe;

31-07-41 - P7425 no name, pilot baled Albury, Herts
Blacked out during aerobatics not sure of altitude onrecovery and baled out.Sgt RJ Howard 1181687

05-09-41 - P8277 no name, a/c overshot hit hedge Matlask
Landed downwind and overshot. Touched down on brow of hill,
approached too high and too fast, hit boundary hedge. Sgt NM Moore R74456 injured.

12-10-41 - P7971 no name, a/c undershot at night & hit trees Horstead Hall, 1m SW of Coltishall.
Undershot, approached too low and hit trees Sgt LG Edwards R69087(Can) injured.

02-11-41 - P8384 no name, pilot baled low altitude Manor Farm, Wood Norton, Norfolk.
Ccrashed Manor Farm, Woodnorth, 8 mls north of Swanton Morley Cat A.First flight ontype. Pilot evidently ran into bad weather which he failed togetoutof. He lost orientation and baled out at about 200 ft parachute part open. P/O HJ Thiele 404892(Aus)ok.

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Finally

N3237 was P/O PV WATSON #41637 killed(died 28.5.40, buried at Calais Canadian, France)

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello Paul,
Many thanks for your support and for the replies.

To confirm that I understand correctly.
16-01-39 - K9820 - P/O. A. I. Robinson.

18-04-39 - K9798 - still unknown.

09-05-39 - K9759 - still unknown.

24-01-40 - K9811 - still unknown, a/c ran out of fuel while lost and bellylanded, Clare, Suffolk, SoC 06-02-40, but a previous accident on 29-08-39 with P/O. M. D. Lyne on 1st solo. (K file does not note this earlier event).

07-03-40 - K9800 - Still unknown, hit bump and u/c leg collapsed on landing, Duxford. (K file goes on to say - AST 18.3.40; 8 MU 5.40; 5 OTU 14.7.40; 7 OTU 21.8.40, became 57 OTU 1.11.40; damaged 16.11.40; AST 22.11.40; 37 MU 15.2.41; 1 AAS 28.3.41; to 3277M 26.11.41 at 10 S of TT; SoC 18.5.44). but no note of the two 1939 accidents. So a rather accident prone a/c. Anything on pilot 16/11/40 ?

28-05-40 - K9821 - Still unknown, u/c jammed, bellylanded Duxford. ( K file goes on to say DBF in accident 20.7.41.) no note on the 6-10-39 collision, but it is in Derek Palmers book with photo of Clouston with a tail chewed K9854.

24-03-41 - P7429 - P/O. Anderson. in collision with P7379 piloted by Sgt. Charnock.
31-07-41 - P7425 - Sgt. R.J. Howard.
05-09-41 - P8277 - Sgt. N. M. Moore.
12-10-41 - P7971 - Sgt. L. G. Edwards.
02-11-41 - P8384 - P/O. H. J. Thiele.

And N3237 - P/O. P. V. Watson.

Wonderful response.
Again many thanks
Alex

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello,
Thank you for the earlier replies.
Now to continue.

19 Sqdn
1942
1st April - AD377 - pilot ?
26th April - BL316 - pilot ? a/c damaged.
16th May - AD476 - pilot ?
6th or 2nd December - EP749 - P/O. L.M. M. Ciechamowsik + a/c hit hill Mary Tavy, Devon.
1943
15th March - EP715 - pilot ? c/l Sherborne in Dorset.

Thanks
Alex

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello Alex, two more identified.



16-05-1942 Supermarine Spitfire Vb AD476 (QV-?), 19 Sqn based at RAF Perranporth hit a fuel bowser while taxying, injuring the pilot Sgt Josef Sokol (Czech), RAF No.: 787523/149566 (KIFA 17/07/1946)

01-04-1942 Supermarine Spitfire Vb AD377 (QV-?), 19 Sqn, aircraft wrecked during forced landing due to engine failure injuring the pilot F/O Rudolf Borovec (Czech), RAF No.: 81885 (killed in ground combat 09/11/1944 in Slovakia as a member 1st Czechoslovak fighter regiment)



26-04-1942 Spitfire Vb AD514, F/Sgt Royer, category A flak damage, nothing on BL316


Kind regards.

David

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Thank you David, your help is most welcome.
Many thanks
Alex

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello,
I have an amendment to this for you. 01-04-1942 Supermarine Spitfire Vb AD377 (QV-?), 19 Sqn, aircraft lost due to engine failure during a landing approach to RAF Ludham, Norfolk. The aircraft went into Hinkley Broad where it still lies as far as I am able to establish. F/O Rudolf Borovec(Czech), RAF No.81885 was not much the worse for wear but, comically, was seen walking down the runway soaking wet.
Best wishes
Roger

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

24-01-40 - K9811 was Sgt Peter Stackhouse Gunning #515543
later 43474 and KIA 15 Oct 1940

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

07-03-40 - K9800 - Still unknown - P/O Francis Noel Brinsden

Sgt J A Potter is John Alfred Potter 580179

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

28-05-40 - K9821 Sgt David George Samuel Richardson Cox #745136

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Re; Spitfire P7887.

I see in this thread an almost complete list of 19 Squadron losses with the exception of the above.
Does anybody have the name of the pilot of 19 Squadron Spitfire II (L.R.) P7887 which stalled on take-off on the 4th September 1941 and was destroyed by fire? The pilot survived.
Many thanks,

Roger

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

I see this is an old posting. I have recently been transcribing a logbook of GC Matheson of 19 Squadron written in April 1940. He describes an accident at Duxford When Peter Howard-Williams made a night landing in the wrong direction and pranged the C.O.' (I believe this was Sq-Ldr Geoffrey D Stephenson at that time) into an obstruction. Anyone got any idea about this incident and the aircraft involved? The date is 21st April 1940. Thanks, Howard

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Looking at the entry for 21st April again I see that the 'prang' was at Horsham St Faith and not Duxford. I note that:-
No. 19 Squadron Leader Geoffrey Stephenson piloted Spitfire N3200 on its first and only operation as he led his squadron on a patrol to cover the evacuation of Allied forces.After shooting down a Junkers Ju 87 Stuka dive-bomber, Stephenson was himself shot down. He crash-landed on a beach at Sangatte, near Calais, and was captured. His Spitfire N3200 was recovered from the French sands in 1986 after strong currents revealed it, more than 45 years after it sank. The wreckage was excavated during the spring of that year and, though largely intact, very few parts could be salvaged. The Spitfire was restored to flying condition and returned to the air in 2014, before it was donated to IWM in 2015. During a visit to the museum in July of that year, the Duke of Cambridge watched an air display by the Mark 1a fighter, sat in its cockpit and visited Duxford’s Battle of Britain exhibition – housed in the very same hangar that No 19 Squadron’s Spitfires were kept during the war.

The Entry in Matheson's personal notes to himself of this incident on 21st April 1940 are as follows:

"In the afternoon I fly to Duxford and send Magister with Fitter to put the Magister stuck, right. Both Magisters return to Duxford about 7 pm. Send P/O Baker on to Horsham immediately with a Magister. P/O Howard-Williams stays behind to take back the C.O.’s Spitfire. I leave Duxford at 8 o’clock with H-W in formation with me; I misjudge the amount of light and we arrive at Horsham in the dark. I land alright but H-W lands in the wrong direction and goes straight through the obstructions. He damages the C.O.’s aircraft. Clouston and the C.O. furious. Can’t really blame them. I am put under arrest by the C.O. As the C.O. did not specify, it should mean ‘close arrest’ but as he has not placed another officer to guard I take to mean ‘open arrest’. I feel pretty bad about the whole thing because I take particular pride in being careful when I lead people about the sky. It is not H-W’s fault because he is very inexperienced. Lucky he didn’t kill himself."

Hope this explains my interest in this incident,

Howard

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello Howard,

Thanks for the very interesting contribution. Is GC a relative ?

As far as I know this is a ‘new’ Spitfire accident to most of us. There is no F.1180 accident report and no mention of it in the 19 Squadron Operational Record Book. Some units, including 19 Sqn., were reluctant to report all their prangs. I would like to identify this Spitfire if possible. I suspect, but cannot prove, it might be K9825. 19 Squadron only reported operational sorties in their F.541 ‘Detail of Work Carried Out’ part of the ORB. K9825 is last shown flying operationally on 8 April 1940 and does not appear again until 26 May. The Form 78 aircraft history card for K9825 provides no help unfortunately.
Did GC record any flights – these would be non-operational – in K9825 between 8 April and 26 May 1940 ?

As part of my research into RAF losses during 1939-1940 for the Eagles over Europe project I am especially interested in what entries he had in his logbook for 30 August 1940 with 222 Squadron as there is much confusion in records over their aircraft and pilot match-ups. Any help will be much appreciated.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

As an aside - H I Couzens later commanded Hemswell, and was responsible for the famous colour film "Night Bombers"

Allan

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

As an aside - H I Couzens later commanded Hemswell, and was responsible for the famous colour film "Night Bombers"

Allan

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello Martin,

Geoff Matheson was killed with my wife's father on 24 Aug 1943 flying
mosquito HJ 673 an aircraft they first flew at High Ercall on 60 O.T.U. in May 43.

Since GCM was not piloting the pranged a/c his logbook will not contribute. I did email the person with GCM's pilot's log to see if there was information about his flying on that day and here's what he reports:

I've checked Geoffrey's log book for the period around 21 April 1940. Certainly no mention of the specific Spitfire in your email (N3200). Indeed, the entry for 21 April was an engine test of N3238, a Spitfire he had already flown on 15 April. However, following the last entry for 27 April, there is an entry for 21 April (although it could be an error for 27 April) for a flight in Spitfire L1031 "to and from Duxford", lasting one hour. If he had delivered another Spitfire that day it seems strange not to have mentioned it/them in an otherwise very detailed log, not least because it must have taken up some significant time.

I note in the diary that GCM and 3 pilots had flown to Ternhill on 5th April to collect four spitfires. Not quite sure how they did this so assume they left their transport at Ternhill.

I am hoping to get a look at the Pilot's log later in October.

Best wishes,

Howard

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello Howard,

Thanks for that. In October I would be interested to learn if you find anything about K9825 (8 April to 26 May 1940) or his Spitfire on 30 August 1940.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Will do Martin. I have 5 photos of his crash landing near the paper mills at Sittingbourne on 30 Aug 1940. the serial I was given was P9443. I will check the accuracy of this with his log. Regards, Howard

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello Howard,

the reason I am so interested in his aircraft on 30 August 1940 is because primary (22 Sqn. ORB and the AIR 81 casualty file) and published sources record his Spitfire serial number as P9443. However this aircraft was a write-off because of the damage it suffered this day.

According to the same sources P9375 was supposed to have been the mount of P/O Carpenter (also 222 Sqn.) this same day. Carpenter baled out but actually P9375 was repaired, later returned to 222 Sqn. and flew with an OTU into 1941.

I think Carpenter baled out of P9443 (total loss) and Matheson crash-landed in P9375 (repaired).

Do the photos show a serial number or individual letter on the fuselage side ? How damaged does the Spitfire appear ?

Regards,

Martin.

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Martin I think the number I was given through a friend with a connection to the RAF Historical section is a typo as the plane was written off. so must have actually been P9443.

I can send photos if you like.

Howard

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

Hello Howard,

that would be great re. the photos and much appreciated.

I have also sent you a private message using the PM system.

Regards,

Martin.

Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.
 

I now have an explanation of this event.

I have recently beeen loaned GC Matheson's pilot logbooks and a large box of related air force books from his widow's collection.

Tucked inside the book, "Fighter Squadron" by Derek Palmer was a letter, a typescript page and copy of a Peter Howard-Williams photograph that included Geoffrey Matheson.


Letter from Derek Palmer to Margo Legg,

<Snip> Peter Howard-Williams did a long audio tape (it is unclear when he recorded this - H) which I transcribed over about six or seven pages. I have enclosed the page which refers to Geoff. ys. DP

<Snip> "I remember coming back to Duxford from Horsham St Faith, it was quite late in the evening and I was flying number two to Matheson. We had left Horsham a little late and we hadn't any night flying facilities at Duxford for landing at night. And Matty, as he was known, wanted to go via his girlfriend's house and beat up the house which we duly did. When we got back it was pretty dark and when I came into land I hit some obstruction in the middle of the airfield that was marking some damp patches. I didn't damage anything but you couldn't see these obstructions because it was too dark. I remember Matty got a bollocking for that."

Matheson's diary seems to suggest that it was the other way around and they were returning to Horsham St Faith from Duxford. He doesn't mention the diversion of beating up his girlfriend's house on this occasion but this may have been noticed and reported to the C.O. explaining his annoyance!

These accounts also differ in regard to the extent of damage - if any.

This was 21st April 1940 so the ORB and or MT pages may indicate which aircraft Peter Howard-Williams (The C.O., G. Stephenson's) was flying on this occasion. Matheson was in L1031 which he seems to have taken over from Douglas Bader when he was with 19 Squadron. Clearly a talisman for him as he did the same with Bader's first 222 squadron Spitfire P9443.