unknown WNr.
 

Hi all
one friend of mine asked me to help. he found the probably Bf 109 engine No: 01104641
loss should happen on 29.9 1944.
other id found on the wreck are No. of fuel "injection" pump Wnr. 589727 Gërat Nr.9-2196e-Z(4).
Anyone can identify the version of plane or its WNr?
Thanks a lot

Peter

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Peter,

Any general location for this find?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Re: unknown WNr.
 

czech / polish border...

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Part of DB605.

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Thanks Peter,

Sorry, the only W.Nr. infos I have for that day do stem from the 17 Bf 109's lost that day on the Western front only...

Cheers
Marc

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Could it be this?
1944-09-29, 4./JGr. Ost, Bf 109G-6, 782153, 12 weiße, Setzdorf bei Neiße, Zusammenstoß in der Luft um 15.15 Uhr. Bruch 90 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Ramonat, Bruno, +

Matti

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Hi Matti,
According to info pilot was unhurt, but it can be the other plane of the Zusammenstoss...any info about that one ?

peter

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Unfortunately not. No wounds - no NVM.

Matti

Re: unknown WNr.
 

JGr.Ost, lost at least 3 other planes that day


4.Jgr,Ost X X BF109G-6 410731
4.Jgr,Ost X X BF109G-6 782164
Jgr,Ost X X BF109G-6 7,,, NO+,,


Rémi

Re: unknown WNr.
 

410731 is a good bet.

782164 was, according to my info, lost later:
1944-10-04, 4./JGr. Ost, Bf 109G-6, 782164, 10 weiße, 1 km südlich Goldmoor, Notlandung um 08.15 Uhr infolge Motorstörung. Bruch 75 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Roßwaag, Otto, verletzt

Matti

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Hello Peter and everyone,

This Motornummer is new to me. It does, however, fall nicely within a series of Henschel F/M, Kassel-built DB605A-1/trops in my files (Hersteller code = hsr). These include:

01104126, 01104293, 01104314, 01104408, 01104515, 01104631, 01104641 (yours), 01104671, 01104777, 01104801, and 01104968.

As has been suggested, this particular model of DB605A was found on Bf109G-6 and Bf109G-14 models.

Steve Sheflin

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Rémi,

You're positive W.Nr. 782164 is a G-6?

Cheers
Marc

Re: unknown WNr.
 

It is named like that, the last the NO+ is also a G-6 built in late 43, I hv no Wn to add , but the only NOs I found were tested in that period,

Concerning the 782164, Matti, is given "off strength" on a report dated of 30.Sept. in the same report the loss of 782153 is also reported, I supposed that it was lost the same day as the 782153 so the 29.Sept.


Rémi

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Merci Rémi!

G-6 in that G-14 W.Nr. range: fact or typo?

Cheers
Marc

Re: unknown WNr.
 

G-6 in that G-14 W.Nr. range: fact or typo?


I dont know..!

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Ben nous voilà frais....

Well...and now what? Anybody out there who can shed some light in this G-6 vs G-14 mix-up in the 782 xxx W.Nr. block?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Re: unknown WNr.
 

ça fait bien 3 mois qu'on est au frais , ça peut encore durer...et revenir

Here a list of the 782xxx, all lost

BF109G-6 782005
BF109G-14 782006
BF109G-6 782011
BF109G-6 782042
BF109G-6 782105
BF109G-6 782134
BF109G-6 782135
BF109G-6 782136
BF109G-6 782136
BF109G-6AS 782139
BF109G-6 782141
BF109G-6 782146
BF109G-6 782149
BF109G-6 782153
BF109G-6 782155
BF109G-6 782161
BF109G-6 782162
BF109G-6 782163
BF109G-6 782164
BF109G-6 782164
BF109G-6 782165
BF109G-6 782166
BF109G 782167
BF109G-6 782168
BF109G-6 782169
BF109G-6 782170
BF109G-6 782174
BF109G-6 782178
BF109G-6 782180
BF109G-6 782181
BF109G-6 782181
BF109G-6 782183
BF109G 782186
BF109G-6 782187
BF109G-6 782190
BF109G-6 782192
BF109G-6 782193
BF109G-6 782204
BF109G-6 782210
BF109G-14 782216
BF109G-6 782218
BF109G-6 782225
BF109G-6 782233
BF109G-6 782234
BF109G-6 782249
BF109G-6 782253
BF109G-6 782262
BF109G-14AS 782270
BF109G-14/AS 782287
BF109G-14ASM 782288
BF109G-14AS 782290
BF109G-14 782291
BF109G-14AS 782292
BF109G 782294
BF109G-6AS 782295
BF109G-6 782296
BF109G-14 782299
BF109G-14ASM 782300
BF109G-14/AS 782301
BF109G-14/AS 782302
BF109G-6 782303
BF109G-14 782304
BF109G-14/AS 782306
BF109G-14 782311
BF109G-14AS 782314
BF109G-14 782315
BF109G-6AS 782319
BF109G-14AS 782322
BF109G-14ASM 782323
BF109G-14AS 782324
BF109G-14AS 782329
BF109G-14AS 782330
BF109G-14 782335
BF109G-14AS 782336
BF109G-14AS 782337
BF109G-14/AS 782338
BF109G-6AS 782340
BF109G-6AS 782342
BF109G-6AS 782344
BF109G-14/AS 782346
BF109G-6AS 782347
BF109G-14 782348
BF109G-14AS 782349
BF109G-14AS 782350
BF109G-14AS 782353
BF109G-14 782354
BF109G-14ASM 782354
BF109G-6AS 782357
BF109G-6 782360
BF109G-14AS 782361
BF109G-14AS 782363
BF109G-14AS 782366
BF109G-14AS 782372
BF109G-14AS 782374
BF109G-14 782376
BF109G-6AS 782377
BF109G-14/AS 782380
BF109G-14 782381
BF109G-14 782381
BF109G-14ASM 782381
BF109G-6AS 782382
BF109G-14 782383
BF109G-14AS 782387
BF109G-14 ASM 782389
BF109G-14 782391
BF109G-14AS 782391
BF109G-14/AS 782393
BF109G-14/AS 782399
BF109G-14AS 782402
BF109G-14 782403
BF109G-14AS 782405
BF109G-14ASM 782406
BF109G-14 782407
BF109G-14ASM 782411
BF109G-14ASM 782413
BF109G-10 782422
BF109G-14 782422
BF109G-14 782425
BF109G-14AS 782426
BF109G-14AS 782429
BF109G-14AS 782430
BF109G-14 782474
BF109G-6 782690
BF109G-14 782731
BF109G-14AS 782752
BF109G-14 782753
BF109G-14AS 782756
BF109G-14 782758
BF109G-14AS 782760
BF109G-14 782765
BF109G-14AS 782765
BF109G-14 782768
BF109G-14 782771
BF109G-14 782775
BF109G-14 782779
BF109G-14 782780
BF109G-14 782781
BF109G-14 782845

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Mille mercis, Rémi! Voilà un sérieux coup de froid sur mes certitudes...

Many many thanks Rémi! Much appreciated even if your data has a chilling effect!

Sifting through your data, I'm really amazed by the sheer numbers of Bf 109 G-6: starting with W.Nr. 782005 up to 782262, out of the 47 documented planes, you have only...two Bf 109 G-14! Wow! And i thought this serie was 100% G-14...

Thus the well-known W.Nr. 782192 is in fact a G-6... The same of 782249...alas
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625414158747
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625414158747

Will there be ever a respite for the folks trying to figure out the arcane of late war Bf 109 studies?

Re: unknown WNr.
 

AH I warned you off Marc!..
We are far from simple Schmoll list.
In the upper lost (extract) list given by Rémi we can even find 782422 which is registered once as a G-14, once as a G-10!!

But what is less understandable is why in four or five following WNr. we can have a G-6/AS, then a G-14 then a G-14/AS then a G-14/ASM and so on...
What reasons prevailed, who decided such a mess? Lack of components from one plane to another one?
Was it like a store at unit level if not at pilots will?

Regards, Franck.

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Guys, to bit confuse your discussion with very nice info.
My friend told me that on the location was found this, see attachment, piece of metal, with number 782159.
any idea if this is a Wnr? there was no plate with WNr found on the engine or crash site.

another question is : are there any details what happened to Bf 109 G-6 410731?
Thanks

peter

Attachment 8584

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Very good questions, Franck!

Maybe Charles or Jörn have some insights in this seemingly "pick what you have " process at factory level...

Whas it also a matter of having recycled airframes being reallocated a new W.Nr. after their rebuilding? I'm thinking of those two dataplates affixed under the cockpit we can see on some of those machines... An example a contrario is W.Nr. 163824 which stuck to its original W.Nr. despite its umpteen refurbishing...

Ah, headache!
Marc

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Peter,

according to G.R. Morrison, W.Nr. 410731 was flown by I./JG 106 and suffered a 25% damage due to pilot eror whilst landing at Germersheim, 3 June 1944. Source: BA/MA.

Cheers
Marc

Re: unknown WNr.
 

1944-09-03, 3./Fl.ÜG 1 Süd, Bf 109G-6, 782159, Berg Alber, Bodenmais, Unfreiwillige Bodenberührung infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch 90 %.
Flugzeugführer Lt Tschassownikow, Alexej, +

1944-06-03, I/JG 106, Bf 109G-6, 410731, Fl.Pl. Germersheim, Bedienungsfehler bei Landung. Bruch 25 %.

Matti

Re: unknown WNr.
 

I forgot the losses from 2.lines units, take care also that only the "whole-over" of the list is accurate, because the lot of data, one by one not all is 100 % proof!

BF109G 782146
BF109G-14 782148
BF109G-6 782159
BF109G-14 782160
BF109G-6 782207
BF109G-6 782211
BF109G-6 782212
BF109G-6 782219
BF109G-14 782226
BF109G-6 782230
BF109G-14 782232
BF109G-6 782235
BF109G-14 782243
BF109G-6 782256
BF109G-14 782257
BF109G-14 782259
BF109G-14 782260
BF109G-1 782265
BF109G-14 782267
BF109G-14 782268
BF109G-14 782296
BF109G-14 782418
BF109G-14 782776


Rémi

Re: unknown WNr.
 

One solution concerning this "mess" comes from a sentence made by Rasmussen in another thread:
"... The gaps might be due to the air attack from 21st July 1944 on the Mtt Regensburg-Prüfening and Obertraubling factories. Two production hangars full with Bf109s of an advanced and final assembly status had been destroyed almost completely " (sorry no time to find the said thread)

and can be easily pictured by this (for example)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Hence instead of having beautiful lines in a workshop we are facing a lot of little workshops, sprayed all around, with their own tools and their OWN spare parts and building what they can build with what they have.

But! missed an explanation for following WNr.s from a workshop to another one...
I can imagine the guy running with his plate stamping machine from one workshop to another one ... Well, phone is a solution but not that different:
"Hey what WNr. you did?" "782442!" "OK, mine will be 782443" "No, better to check with Hans first, it seams they already did it! " and so on ... :D

Regards, Franck.

Re: unknown WNr.
 

Yes Franck,

Tough to imagine this actually happening with Hans having it already done;-)) That could be a nice sketch situation:-))

Cheers
Marc