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- - Photos 3-8-13 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33231)

edwest

9th March 2013 06:11

Photos 3-8-13

ouidjat

9th March 2013 07:02

Re: Photos 3-8-13

http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI....m=190808621186

Thanks Ed,

Including the absolute evidence that the picture under was Machold's 9./JG 2 "Braune 5", wearing 1./JG 2 emblem, as I pretended two (or three?) years ago when it has been put in auction.

Don't know the said thread's link.

Regards, Franck.

Pilot

9th March 2013 08:15

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Interesting triplane with ringed propeller:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI....m=230940774637

ouidjat

9th March 2013 11:25

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Hello Pilot,

Found nothing on google about that "plane". Something strange on that picture ... is it a plane? a Model? No Jarty!...

Pilot

9th March 2013 11:59

Re: Photos 3-8-13

I would also like to know what is this. At least this prove that there is still much to search and research ;)

Stig Jarlevik

9th March 2013 15:14

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Guys

Jarty is a VERY obscure name in French aviation history.
Charles Claveau has so far only managed to connect the name to one single "Aviette" owned by Henri Bréau. It is not known if Jarty designed, built or perhaps just sponsored that aircraft.

Neither can I make up my mind if the present aircraft photo is of a small aeroplane or a big model.

Cheers
Stig
PS: A very nice catch Ed!!

ouidjat

9th March 2013 16:11

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Hi Stig,

Aviette means nothing particular in that case since Farman, Peugeot did build Aviettes and many others...
But no exhaust ... Muscle powered?? like many Aviettes? Jarty being a bicycle "factory"?

Franck.

Pilot

9th March 2013 17:07

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Compared with grass and shape of rest it look like human operated machine. Exhaust could be on other side or bottom. It look like it have problem on landing, see wheel near the rear side.

ouidjat

9th March 2013 18:01

Re: Photos 3-8-13

:D I'm serious Pilot.
Henri Bréau is in Cycling Archives and Jarty seems to be a common family name in SW France. Even the person responsible for bicycle rental (Vélib, sort of) in and for the city of Bordeaux - today - is a woman called Laeticia Jarty.

Franck.

Stig Jarlevik

9th March 2013 19:30

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Yep Franck

Jarty is connected to bicycles :)
To me Aviettes was a lightweight type of small aircraft, usually single seat.

Cheers
Stig

Marc-André Haldimann

9th March 2013 23:52

Re: Photos 3-8-13

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=230940329757 Cruiser Königsberg, July 1935.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=390555237149 Ju 52 W.Nr. 4035 "D-ALAS", DLH Askania-Kurssteuerung, Luftwaffe.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=390556500083 Albatros AL 101D, Focke Wulf built later D-ETYZ, DVS/Cottbus.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=390556499780: Klemm L25 d VII R W.Nr. 579, DLV-ortsgruppe Berlin, 1934.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=390556499605: Klemm L26 a V, DLV Welzow.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=271168722718: Albatros L75 DSB W.Nr. 10198, DVS.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=271168721281: Albatros AL 101D, W.Nr. 279, Focke-Wulf built, DLV Stieglitz.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=251241002764 Fi 156 D-1 W.Nr. 5229 "GA+TI", Sanitätsflugbereitchschaft 2 (? Sistership GA+TJ belongs to that unit), Eastern Front, 11 October 1941.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=400430129526 Bf 110 "L1+?L", 3./(Z)/LG 1.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=151008162318: He 111 E (?) "71+J26", 6./Kampfgeschwader 157, Hamburg.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=130863666477 He 111 H-6 "1G+FL", 3./KG 27, Eastern Front, 1941.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=171002289449: Dornier Do B Bal 'Merkur' B-Jal , W.Nr.161, Hannover-Vahrenwald, 1935.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=400426687105: Fw 58 "CB+FW", Dievenow-Luftnachrichtenschule See.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=221198329968: Bf 110 "3U+BC", Stab II./ZG 26.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=230941448830: Bf 110 E-3 (?) "4N+??", 3.(F)/Aufkl. Gr. 22, Brüssels, 1942.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=230942211186: Ju 188, 3.(F)/Aufkl. Gr. 33, Athens Kalamaki, 5 April 1944.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=330883572463: Bf 110 "2N+HK", 2./ZG 76, Jever (?), early 1940.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=400426684566: Fi 156 C-1, W.Nr. 4420, Gardermoen, 1941.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=111026506167: Ar 232 B-0, III/KG 200 (?), 1944.

Source: all STKZ, civil numbers or letters markings and pre-war codes: LEMB STKZ database.

Thanks for your haul, Ed!

Cheers
Marc

edwest

10th March 2013 02:03

Re: Photos 3-8-13

You're welcome, gentlemen, and thank you Marc for the additional information.

Best,
Ed

ouidjat

10th March 2013 07:11

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Hi Guys,

Thanks to Peter Evans http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...=100717&page=2 we have another picture of Bréau aviette which is mentionned here:
http://www.le.trait.dunion.free.fr/c...266_20fini.pdf
here:
http://aerostories.org/~aerobiblio/article691.html
and here:
http://siris-thesauri.si.edu/ipac20/...x=DOAMNB#focus

Bréau "The Frog" (But is it the same after all?) is cited in French Patent registration organisation too in particular for a muscular propelled machine but 1956 Patent, not the Aviette I guess.

Patent details aren't available on line.
But should be the same though since most of patents registered under his name do concern cycling.

As for Jarty itself nothing except we can suppose it was the constructor ...

Cheers, Franck.

PS: I've discovered something I didn't know today! Didn't you?
LAST PS: Henri Bréau personnal photo album, personnal belongings and souvenris were put in auction in 2006. Infortunately the collection is not available on line except for subscriber.

Marc-André Haldimann

10th March 2013 10:15

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Yes, I did too, Franck, with that Jarty contraption;-)). I also learned much about ID'eing early Luftwaffe planes:-))

Cheers
Marc

Evgeny Velichko

10th March 2013 11:30

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 163444)

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221198329968 Bf 110 "3U+BC", Stab II./ZG 26.

Its Ostfront (look at the markings of Bf110 and houses :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 163444)

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=330883572463 Bf 110 "2N+HK", 2./ZG 76, Jever (?), early 1940.

Its 2./ZG1.

Marc-André Haldimann

10th March 2013 13:54

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Spassiba Evgueny!

Your corrections/precisions are much appreciated!

Cheers
Marc

markjsheppard

12th March 2013 16:18

Re: Photos 3-8-13

bit on the Whitley P4955

http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI....#ht_534wt_1145

http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/...k40/p4955.html

regards

Mark

Stig Jarlevik

12th March 2013 21:45

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Interesting second photo of the Jarty Franck.

It is beginning to look bigger than a model now. What is something with four wings and a fifth in betwen called? :D

Cheers
Stig

ouidjat

13th March 2013 06:27

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Hi Stig,

Yes, looks bigger, but a 1/1 model anyway?

I suggest "quintuplane" following the "quadruplane" made by Wight (very easy to get through Google). :D

Did you try the Smithsonian link? Did you contact them, since they declare their references are documents and pictures?

Franck.

Stig Jarlevik

13th March 2013 21:00

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Sorry no Franck

When clicking around at the site I don't get nowhere and the info that comes up is either blank or just return me to square one again.

Yes "quintuplane" would have been a relevant name if the wings had been stacked on top of each other, but now they have such strange positions that I can't recall ever having seen such a wing design before.

However I am still waiting for some feedback from France....:)

With Jarty being involved with bikes and the owner reported as a bicycle champion are we looking at some kind of ornithopter (man powered aircraft) here?

Cheers
Stig

Nick Beale

14th March 2013 00:04

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 163444)

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=111026506167: Ar 232 B-0, III/KG 200 (?), 1944.
Cheers
Marc

The only photo in this long list that I can comment on ... The Ar 232s with KG 200 would have served with the I. Gruppe which handled all the transport operations. The III. Gruppe did not form until January 1945 and was equipped with Fw 190 F-models.

More about KG 200's (unusual) structure via this link:
http://www.ghostbombers.com/kf4/West/kg200org.html

ouidjat

14th March 2013 03:14

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik (Post 163623)

1/ When clicking around at the site I don't get nowhere and the info that comes up is either blank or just return me to square one again.

2/ Yes "quintuplane" would have been a relevant name if the wings had been stacked on top of each other, but now they have such strange positions that I can't recall ever having seen such a wing design before.

3/ However I am still waiting for some feedback from France....:)

4/ With Jarty being involved with bikes and the owner reported as a bicycle champion are we looking at some kind of ornithopter (man powered aircraft) here?
Stig

1/ This link (SiS) is a dead end. Need to go on National Air & Space Museum site .. and try to find a good address ... which is not obvious. I don't know what kind of documents they have but, at least, when they say "pictures" means that they knew the plane ... Unless there is somebody in Smithsonian watching eBay!!!

2/ Very close to Henri Mignet concept, isn't it?

3/ You do have a contact? Good luck!

4/ I tend to think yes because of the said patent.

Note: that among the avionettes some got engine and were biplace ... Let's say that in general "Avionette" is the old word for "Ultra-light".
Note 2: "Avionette" is still in use in Portuguese language - at least - to talk about "tourism planes" not necessarily ultra-lights.

Regards, Franck.

edwest

14th March 2013 04:48

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Just to add more confusion... I mean help with the Jarty, here is a magazine that mentions someone named Jarty under "constructors" ? I have no comprehension of French. Please excuse.

http://aerostories.org/~aerobiblio/article691.html

Best,
Ed

ouidjat

14th March 2013 06:44

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Hi Ed,

Yes, I did'nt put that link but detail are in the PdF link I did put on former post.

Nothing to understand except it is cited as (airplane) French Constructor. They did build one hence they are considered as Airplane constructor.
The said C. Claveau who wrote the listing must have a source.
More important; as shown by TU and SiS is that documentaion MUST exist somewhere ... It's just not available online.

Stig said he was waiting for feedback; let's see.

Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann

14th March 2013 08:43

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Nick,

Many thanks for your precision; it is appreciated.

Cheers
Marc

Stig Jarlevik

14th March 2013 22:06

Re: Photos 3-8-13

OK Guys

Here is Charles Claveau's answer (who wrote the piece in Le Trait d'Union) and who is compiling his knowledge about French manufactures between 1919-45 in said magazine.
Quote
It is a clear relation between this strange aircratf and the "aviette" used by Henri Bréau in 1934 : the logo "Jarty" is exactly the same. This strange aircraft has been found by german troops in Villacoublay in july 1940. I think this strange aircraft is an "aviette" meaning a muscular airplane.
What is not explained, is who was "Jarty", the manufacturer or the sponsor for these two machines.
Unquote

I have replied with Franck's suggestion Jarty was involved with bicycles and perhaps even a bicycle manufacturer or bicycle dealer.

Cheers
Stig

Stig Jarlevik

17th March 2013 21:55

Re: Photos 3-8-13

Hallo again

Anyone interested in the Jarty Aviette of 1934 can contact me with a private message. I have received a photo from Charles taken from contemporary magazines at the time.

Cheers
Stig

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