Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Dears Collegues,

Soon I will show for You some of detals from one crashed place of wrack (probably Lancaster, MIA: Stettin). But first could You show for me full list of Lancasters MIA during mission in Stettin and Politz area? I am interesting about all losses in this place in 1944/45.

Here for example one of mission destroyed Lancaster in Stettin (maybe this one will be correct ?- we wil check it):
http://aircrewremembered.com/dunton-frederick.html
http://100548.activeboard.com/t38304...n-30-aug-1944/

"...HK594 was shot down at 01.19hrs by a nightfighter flown by Maj. Werner Husemann: 28 Stab I./NJG3 .Losses that night seem to be around the Swedish coast. The raid on the 29/30th on Stettin involved 403 lancasters and 1 Mosquito of 1,3,6,and 8 Groups.. 23 Lancasters were lost.
Below is a report of the raid by a RAAF Veteran which explains how the Lancasters came to be over Sweden.

On the raid to Stettin on the night of 29th /30th August 1944 ......(...) ..."
More:
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air...ug-1944-a.html

Some Lancaster mission over Stettin:
http://www.flensted.eu.com/1944119.shtml

Thanks in atvance for support.
I belive we can all together try id MIA a/c.

Technical Data plates:

1) Bigger plate size (50 x 70 mm):

TYPE: 683
DWG. No.: I G 1372
SERIAL No.: R3/LB/185 560
CAPACITY: PORT
INSPECTION: R3 45H
MAKER'S No.: -----
DATE: ------

2) Small plate size (63 x 31 mm):

IDD RR
DRG No.: R3/211-3
SERIAL No.: 1425
INSPECTION: No.: ALV 70 R

Have You any idea from which devices and type of aircrafts are this technical data plates (both from the same place in Stettin) ?

BR

Kris

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Have You more information about this technical data plates ? Can You recode this drawing numbers , parts , devices ???

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Well, gathering information of all aircraft missing in Stettin area during bombing & minelaying missions in 1944 and 1945 seems to be a quite big task.
What about purchasing two volumes of Chorley`s series on BC losses which concern 1944 & 1945?
I believe that you may find lots of details of your interest there.

Cheers,
Greg

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Dear Kris (or Krzysztof?)

I am not able to recognise from what kind of equipment both name plates are taken from. But some of date looks like clear information for me.
Namely on bigger plate there is mentioned type 683. Maybe there is coinsidence only but type 683 in Avro is Lancaster.
On the smaller plate there is IDD RR. Does it stands for Rolls Royce? - maker of Merlin XX that powered Mk. I version.

As for the losses of RAF bombers in our area for this moment I can only search in Nachtjagd War Diaries but there will be only those destroyed by nightfighters.
For complete list of FTR bombers I do recommend series "RAF BC losses" by W R Chorley that list all of them no matter of cause of loss.

Best regards/Pozdrowienia
Mirek

PS. It took me so long time to complete my answer so Gregor30 was faster in answering. Noticible is that we proposed the same "solution"

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Dear Friends,

Thanks for answer, I also waiting for more information from UK from some other friends which try to help us, too.

By the way maybe this list will be also usefulf for us:

http://www.flensted.eu.com/1944augustcombats.shtml

http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories...y-ww2-1944.pdf

First of all we have agree type a/c next serial number and on the end crew.
I belive we can do it together, maybe till the end of this week I receive more details, parts photos, .... etc.

(Is it possible that technical data plates belong to one of this a/c types:
Avro 683 Manchester Mk.III orAvro Lancaster B Mk.I ???? )

Similar data plate from another aircraft:
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attac...4&d=1283503173
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=103114
compare with our:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...6&d=1363540511

I think that moust probable could be:

Type: Lancaster I , Serial: PD261 , Code: AS-S
'' ...Lancaster PD261 took off from R.A.F. Kirmington at 21.10hrs for a night bombing raid on Stettin. (...)
Lancaster PD261 was almost shot certain to have been shot down by a night fighter. Dr. Theo E.W. Boiten and Mr. Roderick J. Mackenzie have described it as being one of a possible three, Lt. Kurt Welter, Hptm. Rudolf Altendorf or Oblt. Scholl. All claims were in the Stettin area and at between 01.55 hrs and 02.12 hrs. ...''

Lancaster Mk I , AS-S , PD261 , RAF Service Number: 1069049
Identical types of Lancaster but destroyed in another place:
Lancaster Mk I , AS-U , PD260 , RCAF Service Number: R217185
Lancaster Mk I , AS-W , PD385 , RAF Service Number: 578541
Source:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~dswallow4/GraveLocationC.htm
http://aircrewremembered.com/dunton-frederick.html

PD198 --- PD444 B I Metropolitan Vickers --- http://www.bomber-command.info/serialslancaster.htm

"...
Avro Type 683 – Lancaster Mk. I
PD198-PD239, PD252-PD296, PD309-PD349, PD361-PD404 and PD417-PD444
Part of the fifth production batch of 200 aircraft built by Metropolitan-Vickers Ltd., Mosley Road, Manchester, as part of Contract No. 2221. PD198-PD239, PD252-PD296, PD309-PD349, PD361-PD404 and PD417-PD444. Deliveries commenced 6/44; completed 12/44 (average rate of production, approximately 7 aircraft per week.)
..."
Source: http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_prod_metrov1.htm

Can You check serial numbers for 2 additional Lancasters shot down by night fighter the same day (29/30.08.1944) with PD261 ?

Similar thema - support:

http://www.460squadronraaf.com/target_stet.html (see photo made 29/30.08.1944 over Stettin)
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...p?t-22213.html



BR / Pozdrawiam

Kris (Krzysztof) :)

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Please help at id following details:

1) code for cartrige from Browing 0.303 cal with syg. RG / W I / 45 ????
Similar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:.303ammunition.jpeg
2) one detail from wrack (photo) inside steel pipe is material like aluminium (?) - what is it and where was installed ? For which version of Lancaster ?
3) plate for fuel indication 400 GALLONS ( probably was used by 617 & 619 Squadron ) on the Lancasters.
Like this one:

http://www.spitfirespares.com/Websit...20overload.jpg

but syg. inside the gauge: 504 FG and 1284

Have somebody list of loosed Lancasters from Squadron 619 (and ME 314 - this one was crashed in Feb. 1945 near Stettin and Politz) and others (also Squadron 617)

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

From the same crash place of Lancaster one new detail to ID - looks like small pump:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...59345162745058

for next photos please click right arrow inside picture.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...59349056115490

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...59361524415586

What is it ? Where was located this part (photo) ?

On the part is some different numbers but one of them is : R or P B746 (is it Lancaster number ? for ex. PB746 or RB 746 )

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...71393160888834

BR
Kris

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Kris, the item on the shovel is balancing weight. It serves to stabilize and reduce wobble in the rudders. See attached photo. By the way, your photo was very small and the item was hard to ID, please next time make it a bit bigger. Danny

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Kris, on the ammo, did the casing have 45 on it? RC is Royal Ordinance Factory, Radway Green, Cheshire and 45 would be the year, whcih allows you to say the plane did not crash in 44!!!!
Danny

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Hi Danny ,

About stabilizer I know it but what about:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...59345162745058
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...59349056115490

For amunition I will check with collegue year of production but preliminary I think moust is made 44.

What about this:

1) Bigger plate size (50 x 70 mm):

TYPE: 683
DWG. No.: I G 1372
SERIAL No.: R3/LB/185 560
CAPACITY: PORT
INSPECTION: R3 45H ---- is it year 1945 ?
MAKER'S No.: -----
DATE: ------

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...6&d=1363540511

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Czesc Kris, I will send the photos to a friend who knows the Lancaster much better then I do. I think the part is from the area near the engine and a pump, like you said, but alas, I am an expert on the P-47, not Lanc.

Danny

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Tanks Danny - I will wait for answer. We want ID crashed crew - probably KIA all members.

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Kris, PD261 is not the right plane, wrong manufacturer. My friend asked for you to take close-up photos of the two data plates. Also, he thinks you should send info of the two data plates to the Royal Air Force Museum in England.

Greetings from Bavaria, Danny

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Hello

You say:-

Technical Data plates:

1) Bigger plate size (50 x 70 mm):

TYPE: 683
DWG. No.: I G 1372
SERIAL No.: R3/LB/185 560
CAPACITY: PORT
INSPECTION: R3 45H
MAKER'S No.: -----
DATE: ------

2) Small plate size (63 x 31 mm):

IDD RR
DRG No.: R3/211-3
SERIAL No.: 1425
INSPECTION: No.: ALV 70 R

The Inspection number will usually be maker / manufacturer and 45 will likely be the Inspector.

See Manufacturer codes:-

http://spitfirespares.co.uk/reference3.html

See also the following thread:-

http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/17733.php

Inspection number
The forum thread not only has a list of various Manufacturer Codes by Elliott Smock of the Rebuild a Whitley Project, but a post by a former Inspector of another aircraft type the AW Whitley, regarding the Inspection number on the plate ...

"For example, mine was AW99A Meaning Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft Co. My personal number being 99."

You know where you found the parts (the location) and therefore you must look for, find and trace all local records in local and national Archives of the country where the crash occurred and also in the archives of the country of the occupying forces, at Town Hall, District Administration, Archives, Museums, Libraries and other places of deposit which were created at the time of the crash to trace a record of a crash at that location. Fire service, Undertakers, local Town Authority, your equivalent to our War Committee, Military units, Police, Observers in the area, etc., etc., to get even a date (or several dates) to start or begin with!

I would never trust books or internet entirely, most are not detailed enough to give a field/nearest road location anyway and my research in original documents and cross checks with MoD, indicate that some authors have copied the errors and mistakes of others.

This may surprise you, but my detailed research in early WW2 for several August 1940 days, day and day/night Ops in ORBs of Squadrons, Groups and Commands, indicate that the dates on some Loss Cards upon which Chorley based some of his bomber losses are incorrect! The MoD were unable to explain why some Loss Cards had wrong dates, or had been recorded on non-standard Loss Cards.

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Observer1940 thanks for answer. With local archive is not so easy please remember that before May 1945 here was Germany and after 1945 till now Poland. More of doc. were evacuated , burned/destroyed or lost.

Danny please sent to me e-mail ( Huball25@poczta.fm ) - I am going to sent You back bigger photos with 2 plates.

Crash of plane was found by another persons - not me. But I am interested to agree aircraft details.

On base link with codes from Observer1940 I can say:

683 = Lancaster (All Mks)
R3 = Avro
------------------------------
6D Aircraft Gaseous Apparatus and Ancillary Equipment
from one valve info:
Mk IX/AA * or ...X/AA* or XX/AA* (not easy to read)
6D/221
36281/42
and code : A crown M (Air Ministry) + I think inspection stamp in circle: A.V. 26
-----------------------------------------------------------
another detail data from plate:

Type No.: C7120 (circle with T) Issue no.: 3
Serial No.: CWC/ AOC/ 133315 (Material: Steel)
See: https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...79437141320850
----------------------------------------------------------
another detail data from technical plate similar as above:

Type No.: 7108 Issue no.: 5
Serial No.: damage...123845 (only last numbers exist)(Material:Aluminium)
See: https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...79464559194626
-----------------------------------------------

Somebody know how much Lancastes AVRO was destroyed in period 1944/45 in area Politz/Stettin ( I think this one was from 1944) ? Just now list should be smaller.

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Kris, to my knowledge only 2 Avro built Lancasters crashed in that area between 44 and 45. Danny

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

So good message Danny - please inform me about serial numbers for both Lancasters AVRO.

For sure only one of them (I think) had following OX-valve/ regulator with serial number as below:

6D Aircraft Gaseous Apparatus and Ancillary Equipment
6D = Oxygen Equipment

from one oxygen valve/regulator info:
Mk IX/AA * or ...X/AA* or XX/AA* (not easy to read) ---- Mk IX 6D/221
36281/42 (early OX regulator - made in 1942 ??? )

See:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...45330298706962

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...45344755172626


Question:

Is it possible that here can be a/c serial number ( I do not belive but ... ?) :

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...71393160888834

31 July 1944 / JB746 /Lancaster/ 103 Sqn del'd 11-12-43/ PM-I/, SOC 4-8-44 /Shot Down /Day/ Le Havre / Unknown

I think it should be:
Avro Type 683 – Lancaster Mk. I

but which one (the moust ammo with year of production 1944 ) ??? :)

Best wishes from Pommern,

Kris

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

One think is interested.

Here say:

Lancaster KC-H was used on the second raid on the Tirpitz
Lancaster overload tank gauge (Instruments pg 8 Fuel gauges 10)
Fitted to 617 Sdr Lancaster's on the Tirpitz raid
Part number: FG 504

this code FG 504 is shown here:

http://spitfirespares.co.uk/Website%...20overload.jpg


This is an overload fuel gauge used on Lancaster's. 617 & 9 Sdr Lancaster's used these fuel gauges when very long flights were required.

Source:
http://spitfirespares.co.uk/Instrume...auges%208.html

============

The same code is on the our ac plate:
504 FG
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...45324053777506

Is it possible that in our case is:
Lancaster AVRO Type: 683 from Squadron 617 or 619 ????

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

It looks like you have a Lancaster and probably one made by Avro

All the little parts (fuel gauges etc) will not be marked with the serial number of the aircraft, just their own stamps and marks as part of the manufacturing process that made them, so --746 is a red herring

Where there are dates on things (bullets are particularly useful for this) what is the youngest item you have? If there is anything with a 45 on it then your aircraft cannot have crashed in 44.

The overload tank gauge just means it is a Lancaster with an overload tank, I do not think that is definitive for even identifying a squadron

To positively identify it you need to find an Avro serial number for the a/c or one for the Merlin engines. Sometimes you can link the serial number for the engine to the airframe through the various RAF forms, however engine changes were common and the paperwork does not always match.

Unless the site is very remote, there must be someone locally (even with all the turmoil on 1945) that remembers the crash and what happened to the crew. Are you sure they are not still on board?

Get a copy of Chorley for 1944 and 1945, get a list of all the a/c it could be and then start eliminating them one by one

Regards

Martin

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Hello Martin,

Thanks for answer.

Acc. to:
"...Where there are dates on things (bullets are particularly useful for this) what is the youngest item you have? If there is anything with a 45 on it then your aircraft cannot have crashed in 44. ..."

- I know about it but I must meet once again with friend and check it ( for sure was: 43 and 44) .

"...what happened to the crew. Are you sure they are not still on board ? ..."

- I think it is possible .... but could be that German people taken them and made grave in the nearest of crash place (in forest).

Crash area is very big - I think ca. 100-200 [m2]. Probably a/c went down vertically and exploded.

Only this parts could help us ID - this is what my collegue have found in crashe place:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...CMLC9p2Bv4CvCg

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Kris, check your e-mail. Danny

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

By the way, on the picasa link, did you guys realize that the 5th photo, top left is the parachute release mechanism? Danny

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Kris do you know anyone in Gdynia that researches aircraft crash-sites. On the below forum someone mentions his friend in Poland has found Lancaster PB723 near Kielno village.

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/10...scrollTo=91557

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Hi Danny,

Thanks for message.
Sorry but I do not know collegue from Poland - this is another area.
But thanks also for information about PB723 at link above.

BR
Kris

Re: Losses of Lancasters in Stettin / Politz - ID for one wrack.
 

Dears,

I would like to say THANK YOU for correct ID German friend and Danny with collegue for support.
This Lancaster AVRO was from Squadron 115.

Crew graves on the Cmentary in Poznań (now area of Poland):

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/...SON%20CEMETERY

MARRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR !

Kris