Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

A possible solution are built at Wiener Neustadter Flugzeugwerke as 6728 (28 on underside off main spar) 6794 / 6709 on gear attachments fits in WNr block 6651 - 6822 WNF Bf109F-2. Markings on main spar rh pic above) shows a clear F-2 and may be WNFF-2. Later modified too Bf109G-4 by Messerschmitt AG (MA on main spar, se lh pic) fits in WNr block 16001-16250. Left the factory as 16224. Now we can search for information on WNr6728 and WNr16224

We need info on thees airframes:

me109 F2 6728 stkz DJ + JJ
me109 G4 16224 stkz CL + EX ( seems to be machines in this block deliverd to norway / finnland , spesialy f120 / 124
The latter one may be Hptm Willy Lerch (f)120 lost 17.11.1943 on a mission to Scapa Flow

Follow the tread on LEMB

Ernst

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

1944-06-29, II./NAG 102, Bf 109F-4, 6728, Fl.Pl. Jüterbog-Damm, Beim Start ausgebrochen. Bruch 20 %.

1943-03-23, III/JG 53, Bf 109G-4 Trop, 16224, Fl.Pl. Trapani, Bei Landung ausgebrochen. Bruch 25 %.

1943-11-17, 1.(F)/120, Bf 109G-4/R3, 19402, A6+ZYH, (Scapa-Flow, Pl.Qu 06 Ost 1018), Vermutlich notlandung auf See infolge Brennstoffmangel. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Hptm Lerch, Willi, vermißt

Matti

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Tank you for the replay Matti Salonen. This means we have to forget this F2 werke nr, as it lived past the G4, meaning in could not have been rebuild as the G4 airframe.
Then i will try to look at it this way.
Say that nr 28 means nr 28 in the row of this werk nr block
Then it will give werke nr 6651+28 = 6679
So then we need info on werkenr 6679
We can also try with the letter K, may be meaning Stkez K? + ??

Ernst

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

I think we now have information to solve it:

F2: stkz block for werknr 6667 - 6692 give GC+FA - GC+FZ, meaning werknr 6677 = GC + FK ( K on underside off main spare)
werknr 6679 = GC + FM ( 6651 + 28 u side off m spare)

We then need info on 6677 and 6679 to deside the letter K

G2 / G4
If we think the same vay here MA are stkz and 234 are numer in the werk nr block

WNF have a werknr block range from 14501 - 14850 14501 + 234 = 14735

Alpabete have 26 letters MA are then 13 x 26 = 338 littlebit higer
vill give a werk nr 14839

I found this macine A G2 from WNF NV + MA werk nr 14847 i think will corespond well with the stkz

We need info on werk nr 14847 and 14735

Ernst

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

We now have a loss record on F2 6679 but not any confirmation on the stkz ( GC + FK )

W.Nr. 6679, som det etterspørres info om, var en F-2 som havarerte under landing i Arques (Frankrike) 10.05.1941. Maskinen tilhørte da 5./J.G.53 og ble 35 % skadet. Mer på dette flyet finner jeg ikke i tapslistene.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

1944-08-19, 2./JG 106, Bf 109G-2, 14847, 105, Fl.Pl. Reichenbach, Notlandung infolge Brennstoffmangel. Bruch 50 %.
Flugzeugführer Gefr Staude, Fritz, verletzt

1943-08-01, I/JG 4, Bf 109G-2, 14735, Fl.Pl. Mizil, Bruchlandung infolge Feindbeschuß. Bruch 5 %.

Matti

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

One problem though...

The numbers on the gear attachments have nothing to do with the werk of the aircraft.

MIke

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Some say yes some say no, may toghths about it is regarding werknr blocks 6709 is deliverd to werknr blocks containing 67 serie

I hope we find some info regarding F2 6677

We asked the team in bodø regarding their G2, it contains no number at all.
May be it is factory related or time related

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Waou Mike at least you are one who is understanding what's happening in this thread.
For my part I'm still scratching my head ... Trying to understand Danish or so.
Though it's not that important since I won't help nobody concerning this research
...
But, however, I have something to illustrate your own comment.
The picture in attachment shows us how a famous Bf109F/Trop became ... WNr. 31010! :D

Be good, Franck.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

1941-05-15, 5./JG 53, Bf 109F-2, 6677, Fl.Pl. Saint-Omer-Arques, Von landender Bf 109F-2, Werk.-Nr. 6682, gerammt. Bruch 15 %.

Matti

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

ah yes...however it has been speculated for many years...and no one knows if 31010 is the part number of the part that plate is attached to, or the main werk. If it were the main werk, it would have been written in many other places on the aircraft. I suspect it is not the main werk.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

You can suspect it freely! Of course it's not the main werk. Must be read 3H010, obviously, though doesn't match precisely with spare part listing; you got it?

And believe me I've been lucky to get this picture since the former curator did send "31010" ten years ago - I've been told...

The normal plate behind air scoop doesn't exist anymore (even under thick layers of paint ... and they were ready to sand it down two weeks ago!), as well the small triangle just forward/under tail area.

I've been waiting almost a month for another possibility but it seems the "expert" is out of reach - or more simply he's busy in his own lpersonnal life - so:

You wrote "would have been written in many other places on the aircraft". My question is simple: where? Tending in count that no one do intend to dismount the craft!

You can send me a PM if you think it's better; I do!

Regards, Franck.

PS: I've the picture showing the 3H010 plate position.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Let us go back to what this post is about. Here are the erea behind the fuel tank. As you see there is inserted a plate on the bottom. Can it be a camera installation. Seams to be a field, not factory applied.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

This is also one reason why we dont think it is the 14141 G1. We are missing the round accsess hole for the air compressor to the cabin. This picture is taken off Black 6. Round plate behind the tube.

Strange enough black 6 was orginaly an F. And have G1 possebileties.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Is there other Bf109 today that have this modification done to the cable connection trough cocpit sidewalls. This and the sealing ( removed during cleaning) pionts on pressurized cabin, but we dont have the intake for aircompressor. Is ther any photos, drawings out there wehre this can be taken in truogh other places.

There are a smal batch of G3 (ca 50 ea) high altitude fighters made by the Regensburg factory W.Nr block 16251 - 16300. Deliverd to Jg11, some may be even with cameras, hence the repair in the tail ?
This unit was on ocations stationed in southern part of norway.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Yes. ;-)

It's the access hatch for the "Mutterkompass"*. It got the F and the G at this position.

*) http://www.me-262.de/upload/cms_bilder/img_00000050.jpg

Do you got any parts of the canopy/windshield? There are typical parts for the pressured Bf 109 G.

Do you got that in your cockpit?
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=756
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=757
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=753

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

That is not a muttekompass hatch...a traditional one anyways.

It would be on the right side (not left), but same approx. location. And is more oval (see attached). And attached by removable screws. That patch seems riveted in permanently.

But regarding a cameras, they were installed usually mid fuselage and replaced the radio system, not the mutterkompass. I would think a compass would be quite useful to a reconaisance pilot. :-)


If I were to hazard a guess, the large patch is simply an overly large damage patch.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Uhh, right. It's the wrong side of the fuselage. 8-)

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

I just double checked,and am happy to correct myself. The RB30 camera (which was gigantic) goes in the space of the mutterkompass. It seems almost the size of an mw50 tank.

But, it looks to be sitting more on the centreline, not off to the side.
The smaller cameras (according to one of the 109 manuals) do tend to go in the radio section in the middle of the fuselage.

That is according to standard installations anyways.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Look at the seat back.

I am fascinated that wood and other materials were already being substituted.
I knew it was a late model thing...but I believe you are saying this is likely an early G of some type?

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

According to Vogt, the instrument panels of the Bf 109G-6 changed from aluminum to wood approx. from WNr 19000 - i.e. from spring 1943 on.

Regards

Roland

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

You are not looking at the seat back. ;)

You are looking at the support for the fuel tank. They were ALL made of wood from the F-K.

Mike

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Thank you Mike, appreciated.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

I found this picture at airrecce.co.uk. It shows Rb12,5 in different situations. The left one is a possible solution, or 2 standard. One camera front and one in aft hatch. I have also got a picture off the 20mm shells, showing date 1942. Now the question is, how long storage time had the ammonution. As there seems to be no indication on the production month, Can we say this was used up at latest mars april 1943.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

And i meen i have found the solution for numbering the main landing gear attacments. I found this document on the internet ( i have forgotten wher ), showing all the modification done to all Bf types up to 1943. Here i found modification done to the F2 attacments. Thats way it is numberd, too show on next level airframe that they are modified units in the W,Nr block. On our aiframe F2 attacments are modified to G2 standard. If new parts are instaled, they are already modified to this standard, so it is not neccesary to add numbers. Like the G2 in bodø, new built, no numbers at all.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

No...you can still find complete, unused rounds dated 1941 from old storage. So 1942 dated rounds could have been used to the end of the war.

Mike

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

I agree that the ammo could bee stored to the end of the war. But i think as Norway was a " quiet " place in 42 / 43 the ammo whould bee needed more on other fronts. We will look closer on this. I also think i have the solution for the letters FF2 on the main spar. As the early F1/2 had a 15mm Mg installed, they were upraded to 2Cm ( 20mm ) hence the FF2 ( MG FF 2 Cm ) May be the spar or structure needed modifications.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Here i have tried to put up a table over the airframes history. Starting with WNF F2 production G1 / G2 production Losses and the main landing gear modification in Blue. AS this airframe, like the Black 6 is not finished as pressurized one, i asume its only Erla and the Regensburg factories can be the rebuilder of this airframe.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Anyone having mor info about this loss from Jg11. Is it a BF109 or Fw190.
If there are mor losses from Jg11 / Jg 1 operating in the north sea crashing near Varhaug / Sirevåg / south of Stavanger 1942 - 43

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Isn't an loss of the JG 1/11 but an air victory of this unit.

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

We need more info on this one
07.07.1943 Bf 109G-2 /G1 W.Nr. 14055 NI + BY White 3 1./JG 5
Feldwebel Josef Sommeregger
This aircraft should have served with 11(H)/JG 2 before coming to Norway, may be even in Tunis together with Jg53 ( hence the trop colure on wings ). Repaird / modified ?

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

1942-07-30, 11./JG 2, Bf 109G-1, 14055, Fl.Pl. Audembert, Notlandung infolge Feindbeschuß. Bruch 70 %.
1943-07-07, 1./JG 5, Bf 109G-2, 14055, 3 weiße, Südwestlich Egersund, 90 km südwestlich Stavanger, Luftkampf mit Hampden. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Fw Sommeregger, Josef, vermißt

Matti

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Thanks for your confirmation Matti. This is the real identity of our airframe.
BF109 G1 W.Nr 14055. Built by Messerschmitt AG, Regensburg. Date March 1942, in block 14039-14063. Stkz found in LMBD database says NI + BY

Deliverd directly to JG2 11(H) staffel ?

Crashed 1942-07-30, 11./JG 2, Bf 109G-1, 14055, Fl.Pl. Audembert, Notlandung infolge Feindbeschuß. Bruch 70 %.

Rebuilt to G2 standard in a repairshopp in France ? Is there any info were JG2 sendt the damaged plane to.

Rebuilt by merging G1 with F4 trop airframe? we have a lot of parts / numbers sugesting this teory. Even the engine trottle linkage on the firewall ( 3 different positions ) our was bolted in the upper one saying E motor ( 601E for F4 )

Ended in the northsee serving with 1/JG5
1943-07-07, 1./JG 5, Bf 109G-2, 14055, 3 weiße, Südwestlich Egersund, 90 km südwestlich Stavanger, Luftkampf mit Hampden. Bruch 100 %.

Causing the plane to crash was: RAAF 455 SQD
P.5302 - S UB - S
Crew S/Ldr B.R.D.O CONNOR (P)
F/O R.N LINDEMAN (N)
P/O C.H WALTERS (W/AG)
F/Sgt COLLINS (W/AG)
Off on Rover patrol 7.7.42 Kl 16.20 Engaged by 2 enemy aircraft Kl 18.50, reported by tail gunner. 1 aircraft hit by gunner and brok off, 2nd attacked 5 times befor braking off. Safe home after taking " violent evastive action" to get away from the enemy.

So now we hope people have picture / information on thees Aircrafts / happenings.
First we whould like to know the history off the G1 airframe in France.

Picture showing the engine linkage bolt on E-Motor position ( middle is 605 )

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

More puzzles, this time the main landing gears. Off spesial interest are the Lh side. It has a 8 followed by a stamp, same is found on underside off lower main spar. Number 687 can then be 6687 ( WNF F2 block 6651 - 6822). Fits in with the gear attachments. Supports the teory about usage off a F2 frame to rebuild on. The number 388 gives no meaning at the moment. Then we have the numeral 3.5 singned by someone. May be some measurment for rigging or gear assembley. Then we have the letter G, can this be Gauche ( left in French) Repair facilety in France or Belgium ?

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Rh main landing gear. Number 7813 givs no meaning and does not fit in any known W.Nr block. May be a F4 block. Here also numeral 3.4 signed by someone. Then there are something looking like an (F) on same spot as (G on lh). If this sholud mean right hand side on French, letter D for droit sholud have been there.
Number 499 have no meaning at the moment

We have 3 like thees: 224 on main spar, 388 lh gear 499 rh gear

Also noateble are the ecsessive wear / corrosion on the middle numerals. May be this parts / airframe was stored for a long period of time.

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Hi,

Numbers on the gear legs have no relation to the werk number of the aircraft. I have numerous gear legs (Me109 F-K), and none of the numbers coincide with the main werk number of the aircraft they were removed from.

The only time a werk number was stamped, was if it was going into a part that was never going to be removed or changed out.

The Main Spar and Radio Hatch are the 2 best places. Did you check the radio hatch for a written or stamped number?

Mike

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Hi Mike, this is what we are taking about, as you see no tail , no radio hatch, no id plates. So if you can post picure insted with places to look and what to look fore, maybe we can spot someting on the old pictures taken 23 years ago.
Tought this aircraft was known,as it is the only G1 under restoration

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

Okay...

There is one data plate behind the firewall...left side, near the floor. This also has the aircraft werk number (if it is still there).

The wing root ocassionally had the number painted on it...but in this case, the main spar is going to be the best option.

Mike

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Three facts, or as I understand them be facts:

1. W.Nr. plates indentifying factory, serials or manufacturing dates were ordered NOT installed anymore after late 1942 (i.e. effective for Ju 88s about March/April 1943).

2. After that only the W.Nr., secret factory code (three letter lower case ammunition code) and Abnahme date were given. This applied to both main and part plates, and frequently dates were not stamped on part plates, So if this Bf 109 had gone thugh overhaul or repair after late 1942, do not expect these be still attached.

3. The main Luftwaffe ID or W.Nr. belonged to the rear fuselage, the section below and/or forward of the rudder, and to this was attached (after 1941 a triangular Iron plate - the emergency dataplate). Everything else, all other parts (after 1937) was considered and installed on "ready" and "available" bases at repair factories.

Althou it is likely not in doupt which Bf 109 this was, its main I.D. section making this a Luftwaffe aircraft is missing - and in my mind can not be considered a whole aircraft, because if it has new rear fuselage fitted, it should bear that parts Serial (or W.Nr.) - else I agree with others, numbers stamped on parts are not W.Nr´s. and every caution should be made trying make them match with "blocks" or specific aircraft.

Best regards
Ed

Re: Help to solve the real identity off me109 at sola aviation museum
 

Hello taitbb,

your "patch" from your post of 26th March at 17:46 is the cover of a large hatch on the bottom of fuselage section 2 on starboard. That hatch provided access to some control mechanism.

Regards,
klemchen