Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Hi!

Are there any chance that some of the Mustangs used in late-war raids over Norway were in Natural Metal Finish. I've seen pictures of NMF planes both from 65 and 315 (Polish) sqn. and I know that both squadrons operated over Norway.

Any help appreciated

Best regards
Rune
Norway:)

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Yes there were > In fact the Squadron flew both camouflaged and uncamouflaged MKIV/ IVA as did 19 Squadron. 315 only operated MKIII .None of these were uncamouflaged during the period of operations
over Norway from the info I have . Contact me at terry.jackie@btopenworld.com
over the weekend and I'll dig out some photo's of 65 taking off at Peterhead.
Cheers
Terry McGrady

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

As Terry said 315 Sqn did not strip their Mustang III's until after the war. But 65, 19 and possibly 234 Sqn flew their Mustang IV Silver Birds over Norway in the last months of the war.
If you get Halvor Sperbund's "Brennpunkt Westküste" there are a couple of 19 sqn QV-marked Mustang IV's. The book comes highly recommended. And if you don't want to get the book just contact me by PM or offline ;)

Kyrre

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Hi,

You are probably already aware of the order of 8th March 1945 that declaired that all RAF Mustangs were to drop their coloured camouflage schemes.[Ref: Camouflage & Markings N A Mustang].

If the Attacks you are looking at is before the 8th March then I would doubt that any RAF Mustang was un-camouflaged.

Indeed, the 65 Sqdn a/c that came down in Sweden were both camouflaged. FZ110 YT-S in May 1944 and KH695 YT-E in April 1945.

'695 still wore the fuselage Sky band .
Also IIRC both these a/c had the fin fillet.
Hope this helps

Alex

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Alex
65 as did 19 flew both camouflaged and uncamouflaged MKIV over Norway KH695 YT-E certainly had a fin-fillet It was a MKIVA -P51K
So far have managed to identify 42 MKIV/IVA which serves on 65 , the Majority of which were un camouflaged . Mustang at war has a photo line upof 65 Sq
which both camoed and "Silver" Mustang MKIV/IVA purportedly at Peterhead.

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Veeeery interesting information Terry. Is this something you're planning to have available for the general public at some point?
I trust you've seen the Modelling Aircraft Monthly covering quite extensively the III's and IV's of the RAF? If not let me know...
Also have you got Nyerøds book covering his time with 65 Sqn? Admittedly he flew the III's only, but there are quite a few interesting photos

Kyrre

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

In Sperbund's book (Brennpunkt "Westküste") it is mentioned that both 19. and 65. Sqd. had converted to Mustang Mk IVs which were called Silver Mustangs or Silver Birds for obvious reasons. This was in late March 1945. There is one ophoto there of YT-Q KM148 (flown by Johnny W. Foster). I also have a couple of photos of QV-F KH818 (unknown date) which is also "silver".

So silver Mustangs were obviously used over Norway in the last few months of the war.

Regards,

Kjetil

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Problem of colours and markings of RAF Mustangs is a subject of several misconceptions and errors. I would suggest to avoid old Ducimus booklet as it is more misleading rather than helpful.
Concerning silver Mustangs, all teardrop aircraft (Mk IVAs) but a short batch of Mk IVs were delivered in NM/silver. Few of them received camouflage but this was exceptional. I have no definite proof but I believe Mk IVs ultimately lost their camouflages unless previously destroyed.
Most if not all Mk IIIs were delivered in camouflage and most of them retained it until struck of charge. A few aircraft lost camouflage and saw service during the last month of war. I do not have a complete list of serials yet but of those identified, neither flew over Norway without a paint.

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

I agree with Franek that although the Ducimus book is the best we have had for many years it is important not to rely totally on its contents these days.

65Sqdn flew its first op with MkIIIs and IVs on 8 March 1945 and its first op with all MkIVs on 17 March. 19Sqdn flew its first op with MkIIIs and IVs on 3 April and did not fly its first full op with all MkIVs until 26 April. The photos taken at Peterhead which appear in Roger Freeman’s “Mustang at War” were taken on 20 April 1945 and they clearly show NMF MkIVs in both sqdns but not many serials are identifiable.

Although the official records are not always accurate they show that KM148 was not issued to 65Sqdn until 10 May 1945 after the sqdn had returned South to Bentwaters. The 65Sqdn CO normally flew ‘Q’ but I think Johnnie Foster’s YT*Q at Peterhead was KH788 (probably also NMF but no photographic evidence).

Kyrre


I have tried Googling on "Brennpunkt Westküste"
and on Kristian Nyerrod and not had much luck (in English!!) I guess I can't get the correct Norwegian spelling . Can you provide any more info on these books please including details of booksellers. I am very interested to hear that there is a book by Nyerrod he flew Mustang IIIs with 122Sqdn Jan to May 1944 and was transferred to 65Sqdn in May as a flight commander until beginning of August 1944.

Good stuff!!!!

Steve

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Steve.

Not 100% sure if the books are still available but if they are you should be able to find them both on
http://www.automobilia.no/english/
I know that Nyerrøds book "En av de mange" (One out of many) should be found there at least.

This is a very very very good bookshop in Oslo. Admittedly rather pricey but the owner is in the know about just about any war- or tech book published.

Apart from that I did find the Brennpunktbookfor sale in the webshop of our Norwegian dive mag
http://shop.dykking.no/catalog/produ...products_id=28

You can also get it from the Amazon afiliate bokkilden
http://www.bokkilden.no/ProductDetai...alogName=Books

While we're at it I can't praise enough the book Flyalarm. Loads of pics and just republished. It covers the complete aerial war history over Norway and is VERY thorough. It's our bible. Once again in Norwegian though.
http://www.bokkilden.no/ProductDetai...alogName=Books

Here's the Norwegian book about the Black Friday. Very very good book with lots of nice pictures
http://www.bokkilden.no/SearchResult...n&filtertype=0

Let me know if you don't have success in finding Nyerrøds book. Vee hav our vays you know.

Kyrre

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Hi Kyrre Yes I've seen the articles in MAM Many of the myths regarding Mustang Colour schemes re-iterated . Some useful photo's but the articles did little to get to grips with the issue.
The vast majority of the Mustangs supplied to the RAF Camouflaged were painted in the US this includes P51D-5NT and P51K until the RAF agreed to accept unpainted A/C late September 1944 . Those sent to MAAF tended to be used in as supplied schemes until such times as they received major overhauls and were repainted as deemed necessary.Those in the UK - some werre repainted owing to poor quality paint finishes and during major overhauls. The early MKIII were certainly repainted as these were supplied in DG/DE
Whether or not the ANA colours were used is a matter for conjecture, but photographs exist of early Mustang MKIV being shown at the Dallas Facility in camouflage ALL MKIV /IVA A/C supplied to the RAF and RAAF were Dallas Built with the exception of some trials A/C
A few Mustang III in the SR406-440 series were received "unpainted " these were P51B-10 &15 A/C along with other P51B-1 & B5 in OD /NG
The reason for this is that they were supplied from USAAF stocks in the UK to replace 35 Mustang III in the FX*** series transferred to the USAAF on arrival in the UK late 1943
As for writing a book - No . It would then become too much like work and not fun
Terry

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Kyrre

Thanks very much for the very complete response - I will investigate!

Steve

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Terry
I forgot about SR series, sorry!
For camouflage colours, I would generally recommend modellers to use RAF shades for ETO aircraft but few exceptions like Horbaczewski's FB382 PK-G.
That is all what I want to say at the moment, I am far from considering the subject closed and I do not want to make any comments that may lead to further misleading.
Cheers

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Hi Franek
Yes its a minefield . I've lots of photo's of Italian based Mustangs which show a different shade of grey from those based in the UK .
The Air Britain publication " The British Air Commision and Lend Lease"
indicates that 72 Mustang IVA were sent to MAAF.However I've been through al lmy other references and found that a further 46 KH series and 43 KM series were sent from UK stocks plus FB228 A MKIII with a Malcolm Canopy which served on 3 RAAF .
What I have also discovered is that from KH641 -70 = ALL these A/C were camouflaged from KH671 to the mid KH820 Some wrere camouiflaged and others not. eg KH716 "Silver" KH774 camouflaged . Its really a case of getting hold of a photo of a particular A/C as they were not necessarily painted or delivered in serial order.
Cheers
Terry

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Terry
Yes, I know, I am trying to gather photos as well, but I know no Mustang jocks but Poles and I cannot afford to fully explore IWM or RAFM holdings. Not yet.
There were more Malcolms at MTO, I know of FB145 ex-PK-F that went there but no final unit - sadly movement cards are not so detailed.
KH774 - is it that Shark's Sqn aircraft? If so, it is some sort of local overpaint. Where and when, I do not know, I have not seen anything like that.
Cheers

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Hi Franek ,
KH774 GA*S served on 112 April - May 1945 It was one of 46 KH series A/C that I've so far traced that were transferred to MAAF from UK stocks rather than received direct from the US .
Cheers
Terry

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Yes Terry, it is the aircraft. It does not look like any other RAF camouflaged Mustang and I suppose it could have been painted in Italy. Just a wild guess though.

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Franek ,
I would'nt have thought so Mate. Unpainted A/C were already being operated by the RAF in Italy . The first unpainted MKIVA to see RAF service in Italy was KH716 CV*P of 3 RAAF , Sq Ldr Muray Nash's second MKIVA on 12th December 1944.

Cheers
Terry

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Terry, the aircraft does not look like anything painted in Britain. That is one thing. Another is, that there is no Sky band nor spinner nor trace of repaint present on home Mustangs.
Cheers

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Hello ,

I offered info from a book i had that held information that i thought was relevant.

Sorry the information within it was old, out of date and inaccurate.

But then, :rolleyes: so is the book.

Alex

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Franek ,
The Spinner is the US version of Sky . The simple explanation is that it was painted in the US and did not get repainted before transfer to MAAF.
Cheers
Terry

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Terry
The spinner should be red and probably is. Bad point on my side though. Lack of Sky stripe is more important and the aircraft does not look like anything painted at Dallas.
Cheers

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Franek Have you seen the Photo of the A/C? How can you describe the spinner as RED? Granted it should be red but it most definately wasn't.
Cheers
Terry

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Terry, Dull Red was a little bit translucent and may have caused various effects on B&W photos. Definetely, I would not be as definite as you are in this regard.
Cheers

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Franek ,
I'm appearing "Definate " as GA*S KH774 was not the only Mustang IV to serve in MAAF with a Light Coloured Spinner and no Sky tail band . KH 676 CV*A of 3 RAAF was another - KH690 CV*P was another with a light coloured spinner- in this case it appears in a photo in which another A/C whose spinner appears to be red . CV*P in this case does have a sky band,
KH676/690/774 have one thing in common they were all ex UK stock A/C .
Although the Air Britain KA-KZ serials book merely list these A/C as "ME"
The forms 78 especially in the case of KH667 ( this was a suprise to me as it appears to the only P51D-5NT Mustang IV that I can trace as being sent to MAAF) inducates that these A/C were in fact delivered to the UK first then onto MAAF.
Cheers
Terry

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Terry
I have seen light spinner phenomena on some photos of 318 Sqn Spits, definetelly confirmed red from another ones. Also, shades of grey on B&W photos may vary significantly, despite being the same colour. I am awared of series of photos of RAF Spitfires in Southern France being in plethorra of greys suggesting variety of overpaint schemes and based on available colours. A surviving colour film shot at the very same time proves they were all in a standard DFS, however.
Concerning KH774, I am definite - it does not look like any other Mustang I know from photos and does not conform to known patterns.
I do not recall photos of KH676 & KH690 but information of Sky band on the latter strongly suggest it was a US or British (home) paintwork - Sky bands were not a part of MTO scheme, so I cannot exclude the spinner was also Sky, although temporarily.
Cheers

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Hi Franek ,
This has been an interesting discussion . I do however have a number of photo's from a private collection which shows Mustangs both MKIII &IV in very similar camouflage patterns to that seen on KH774.
So I'm going with what I have .
Cheers and all the best to you and yours for the coming Christmas and New Year
Terry

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Terry
All I was able to find in good enough quality were photos of a recent warbird painted as KH677 CV-P. If the scheme is accurate, then it is a completely different pattern rather than the one on KH774.
If you wish, I may list a couple of dosens of serials of Mustangs that were subject of my analysis.
Merry Christmas
Franek

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

I might be calling the kettle black but why doesn’t Mr. McGrady share those photos he has with us? I’m sure it would shed some light on this rathing interesting topic of discussion. ;)

Regards,
Stephen

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Because I have been asked to keep them private. The owner of the originals of which I have been fortunate to have copies has requested that I don't publish them.
So I'm not cutting my own nose off to suit you or anyone else.

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

Eeeeasy, Tiger,

Since you indicated that you had these pictures, I thought you were offerring them as potential evidence. Now that you have stated your position on the matter, I totally understand. But...why mention the fact that you have them?

In essence, don't flaunt what you can't produce, regardless of the reasons.

Regards,

Stephen

Re: Late war NMF 65 sqn Mustang operations over Norway?
 

I do apologise I wasn't aware I had to get you to vet the contents of my posts .