02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

On 02 Apr 1945 over "Trnava", Czechoslovakia a Yak 1 or 9 (not sure yet) of the 513 IAP flown by Aleksandr Grigor'vich Grigor'ev was shot down and killed by an USAAF fighter. Does anyone have and idea who made a claim that day?

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

My USAAF claims lists show claims this day for 1st, 325th, 350th, 354th and 367th FG.

The last two were parts of Ninth Air Force and flew this day over Germany, 350th FG scored well against ANR Bf 109s over Italy, and so the claims with possible location over Czechoslavkia were done by 1st and 325th FG.

The 325th FG actually fought over Czechoslovakia, as shown by the 318th FS report for this day:
http://www.wingman1945.com/images/rcbsortie281.jpg

All 325th FG claims were made by 318th FS and are listed above. The only claim by 1st FG was claimed by 1st Lt Samuel H Lyons of 27th FS, but I have no details.

But it is also possible that the US pilot realized he had shot down a Soviet fighter, and in this case a claim would not be filled.

Edited: I checked the listing of Luftwaffe claims done by Jim P, and found only 6 victories claims by German pilots: five Austers by JG 27 and JG 53 on the Western front, and a Pe-2 by Uffz. Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann of Stab I./JG 53 (no other details for this claim).

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

Thanks Laurent. I checked "Stars & Bars" by Frank Olynyk which has Major Norman Leroy McDonald's 2 Bf 109 for the 02 April 45 as being 10 miles W. of Wiener-Neustadt, Austria. I have nothing on 1st Lt. A.E. Amedro's claim for a "Me 109". With 4 P-51 not returning from the mission it might be interesting about the circumstances of their loss and what the VVS had on this encounter.

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP flight-leader ст.л-т Григорьев Александр Григорьевич (1921-1945.04.02.) was lost in his Yakovlev Yak-9T fighter, S/N: 1915333, Engine No.: 351-43. (Not a Yak-1b!) Their flight of 4 Yak-9s covered an IL-2 flight which fired some American fighters (soviet report says 10-12 twin boom planes, so P-38s, not P-51s!) but they stopped when they realized their mistake. Grigorev went missing in the Trnava area, not clear what had happened to him. Moscow time 13:05, - 11:05 local time.

Briefly:

"13:05 4 Як вед Григорьев впосле удара Ил-2 по цели атакованы 10-12 самолетоами противника. Самолеты противника были двухфюзеляжные, двухмоторные, до этого не встречавшиеся. Воздушный бой в р-не Трнава потерян из виду."

Cheers,

Gabor

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

Thanks Gabor. Two Russian sites had the 513 IAP as equiped with Yak-1's and Yak-9's for that period. Wonder if Grigorev went down during the exchange or if the P-51's continued the exchage after the Yaks had stopped. The answer I guess might be in the 318 FS reports.

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

Correct. 513 IAP flew Yak-9D, Yak-9T, Yak-9M, Yak-1B fighter versions and some Po-2 messenger planes. (Novosibirsk 153. factory produced Yak-9M fighters after the 25th batch. Grigorev's plane was the 33rd plane of the 19th batch, so it was still a Yak-9T = 19-(153)-33 = 1915333) His plane had tactical number white 33. (the 5 VA, 331 IAD regiments usually marked their planes with the plane ID part of their AC serial number, which -in this case- was 33. It was also listed in the January 14, 1945 plane list (mechanical report) of the 513rd regiment.)

Gabor

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

The only P-38 claims by the USAAF in the ETO or the MTO is a Me-109 by 1st/Lt Samuel H Lyons between 1520 and 1530, and a Me-109 probable by 1st/Lt Thomas J Newell at 1530. Both are listed as vicinity of Eggenburg, 48-33N, 15-45E. Eggenburg is in NE Austria, near the Czech border; and the time doesn't match the 11:05 local time given in Gabor's post. So possibly the combat was not reported.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

I read on a Russian site that it was an American fighter but this could I guess also be a quick "strike" and disappear by the Luftwaffe leaving the American fighters to get the blame. A "Hartmann" hit and run type incident.

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

No. Those were clearly American P-38s, not mysterious German fighters. Peter Kassak said contacted 14th FG pilot who participated the incident, but nobody hit anyone. He did not even fire a shot. Soviet report also says Grigoriev disappeared, so nobody knows exactly what had happened to him. One of the 34 (14 FG) P-38 pilots sweep the Vienna area was Lt. Joe Onesty who was almost hit by one of the Yaks ("MiGs"). Story is also written in John W. Lambert: The 14th Fighter Group in World War II., p.126.

Gabor

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

Thank You all for the answers. I guess this loss will remain a mystery for now.

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

Nokose, I do not know what happened to the Russian aircraft but I have an expanded version of the 325th FG mission on 2 April 1945 (actually 2 missions were flown that day) and I think you can clearly rule out the 318th pilots as being involved with the Russian a/c.
The 318th lost 2 aircraft that day and another 2 had to land at friendly fields for some reason. One P-51 was lost while strafing a truck in a hilly area and failed to pull out of his dive in time, hit the trees and exploded. The other P-51 with three other 51s were chasing German aircraft and Lt Paul Murphy flew in front of a P-51 which was firing at a German a/c. His aircraft was hit, friendly fire, and he was escorted to a Russian held airfield at Kasposvor, Hungary. That is why 4 P-51s failed to land at home base.
The 318th incident time seems to be several hours later although I can only indicate what time our planes reported attacking 15 German a/c. The time was 15:10 hours which would be Italian time at our home base. 8 Me-109s and 7 FW-190s were observed heading east at 14,000 feet by 4 P-51s . The P-51s attacked, the e/a went into a Lufbery, 3 were shot down at which time the rest broke and headed for the deck in all directions. The official report is confused as to what type of a/c were destroyed. It shows Mc Donald with "2 Me-190s" and Amedro with "1 Me-190". I have no idea if it was 109s or 190s that were destroyed.
Cordially, Art Fiedler, mayfair 35 (MY WW2 call sign)

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

Art, Thank you for your reply. It is good to read a reply again on this board from you.

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

I never was aware that there was a USAAF-VVS Dogfight....

I guess you learn something every day.

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

hi,
in stalin eagles you find other combat usaaf vs vvs:
07.11.44

60 P-38 of the 82FG attack ground targets along roads from Sjenica to Novi Pazar, Raska and Mitrovica in Yugoslavia. Due to navigation error they attacked General GP Kotov´s Corps advancing towards Belgrade in the vicinity of Nisch, NW Sofia. General Kotov and other men were killed before General VA Sudets gave free reign to alert flights of Yaks of 659IAP under the leadership of IA Koldunov. In the combat usaaf lost 3 fighters and soviets lost 2 pilots kia and one more bail out.....

regards

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

A La-7 pilot (Kozhedub???) also downed a 15 AAF P-51 (332nd FG?) over Germany. Have no time and can't remember the details now.

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

Hi,
take a look

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=5239

regards

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

In first edition 'P-38 in action' wrote that USAAF lost two P-38 in clash over Serbia in 1944. In second edition that losses simply ommited. Not only P-38 taken part in attack to soviet column when soviet general were killed. Eye-witnesses also mentioned two-engine bomber. They didn't mixed with P-38 as they clearly described P-38 as twin-boom aircraft.

In report of Yugoslav political comissar of Nish airport, after that air battle, wrote that Yugoslav buried 14 americans airman! Amongst soviet KIA pilots, was one women. Soviet pilots buried in the city of Nish, and got the monument, which with flower decorated from yugoslav airman on every aviation day up to 1948. After that, Tito split from the Stalin and the monument dissapeared. Americans picked up the remnants of his airmen in 1946.

kind regards

Newcomer

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

If so, then deads from OTHER events were buried TOGETHER with the dead of this particular AAF vs. VVS incident. Especially if one was a woman. Clearly no woman in THIS incident. Names are recorded plus male regiments were involved only. Story can be partially true, like common burial, etc.

Re: 02Apr45 USAAF & VVS dogfight
 

Hi Gabor,

no, as I understood from documents and eye-wintesses, they buried separately.

The women pilot remembered by the men in which house in Nish that women temporarily lived. His name is Dragoslav Dimic. He was a member of Nish aeroclub after WWII, and he was amongst the member of the aeroclub who decorated monument/grave of soviet pilot in the center of Nish. Mr Dimic, also became glider pilot and aeroplane pilot, graduated as aviation engineer and worked in SOKO - Mostar and Utva aviation factories. He was also aviation constructor and designed light sport plane Utva-75.

kind regards

Newcomer