Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

I was just thinking the other day looking at a photo of an Allied airman being "rescued" and taken prisoner by an Italian patrol floatplane. Since the Japanese infantryman was expected to commit suicide and die gloriously in combat if possible, what was the Japanese policy on bailing out of damaged aircraft, or ditching them? I know I've heard accounts of Japanese pilots trying to ram an enemy target if they were shot down, but what if there is no enemy ships nearby, and you just got pounced and shot down by Hellcats? Are you expected to stay in your plane and die? What if you just have engine problems or run out of fuel over the ocean. To bail out and end up in a life raft puts you in grave danger of being captured without a chance to fight, if an enemy vessel comes across you before a friendly one does.
So did Japanese pilots wear parachutes, and how many of them were "rescued" and taken prisoner after being shot down or ditched?

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

Policy was to NOT be captured! Capture bring great dishonor on self, unit, Imperial forces and most especially on ancestors. Some had a parachute, some did not. That was usually determined within the unit. If shot down or ditched in sea, try to save self. Maybe picked up by friendly vessel or rescue floatplane. If rescue ship or plane turns out to be enemy, kill self to prevent capture. Many, many, many cases of this can be found in the CINCPAC/CINCPOA Bulletins and other documents and narratives. Very difficult to capture Japanese air crew people alive. Most of those taken prisoner were severely wounded and taken before they could kill themselves. This why JN 25 was so valuable to Allies in Pacific. There were so few prisoners for interrogation.

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

This is correct on theory, but as usual, reality is somehow different, just look into detail combat history, such as "first team" and History of Tainan air group, there are far more Japanese aircrew were captured alive unwounded than we led to believe.

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

Then we disagree. When compared on a per capita basis with the armed forces of other participants in World War II, there were very, very few Japanese POWs, and many of those that were captured were not native Japanese but rather Korean or Formosan. There is a great deal of documentation and literature on this subject and I have read a lot of it. But please do not take my word for it. You should be able to spend 2 or 3 days doing an advanced search on Google and come up with a lot of interesting information. In particular, seek out and read the studies and personal memoirs having to do with the gathering and analysis of intelligence by the Navy and Army in the Pacific, ATIS (Allied Translation and Interrogation Service), etc. A good place to start in the literature would be:

PRADOS, John. Combined Fleet Decoded: The Secret History of American Intelligence and the Japanese Navy in World War II. New York: Random House, 1995. ISBN: 0-679-43701-0. Pages 495-98, 532, 579, 697-98.

As the author says on p.495: "In all of 1942 only 49 prisoners had been captured in the Pacific Ocean area, most survivors of the cruiser Mikuma." How many Japanese aircraft were shot down in the Solomons between Aug and Dec 1942? How many were shot down over the Coral Sea and over and around Midway?

The number increased in 1943, but not dramatically. It was not until 1944-45 that the total number taken by Allied forces approached some level of significance. The total for 1944 was 9,379 by our Army and Navy and another 2,038 in the first two months of 1945. These figures include about 25% that were Korean, Formosan and other non-mainland Japanese. These are paltry numbers out of the some 8,000,000 who served in the Japanese armed forces during the war. Oh, and very, very few of them were air crew.

L.

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

We are talking Japanese aircrew only, yes? The vast majority of Japanese aircrews are "real" Japanese, and what I said in my previous post, it was a fact that far more Japanese aircrews were captured without serious wounded than we let to believe, you only need to read some detail Japanese army and navy airforces combat history. Regardless what the society demands, prefering living than death is just part of human natuare. The difference between aircrews and infantry men was after bailed out or crashed land, Japanese aircrews were usually either alone on in small group, they did not need to care much what their mates would think of him if he choose to give up.
P.S it is another myth that it was a samauri tradition that he should prefer death than surrender, that is simply not true, if you read the history of Japanese history, you will see plenty of cases of samauri surrender to enemy and betray their lords. What the people see the way Japanese soldiers behave in the WWII was a relative new phenomenon developed since the 19 century.

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

You go with what you believe, Mars, and I will go with the documents and historians. We'll let the guy who initiated the thread, Johnny .45, decide for himself.

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

I don't have any stat's to add but since most Japaneese airplanes were built with none to minor armor that most crew members were killed before they had a chance to bail out.
The air crew I would think knew that and thought parachutes would not help.
Of all the gun camera film I have seen I get the impression most Japaneese planes were on fire to a point of seeing only wing tips fairly quick.
Maybe not much help but just a thought.
Rick

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

Not my best knowledge area, but it seems to me that the percentage of Japanese airmen lost over enemy territory that surrendered was far higher than the percentage of infantrymen in the same situation.One book that may be interesting on the subject (I don't have it):http://www.washington.edu/uwpress/se...ks/STRANG.html

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

And what percentage exactly would that be, Laurent? I think you would have to divide the total number of Japanese JNAF and JAAF air crew who baled-out and surrendered by the total number of Japanese JNAF and JAAF air crew who flew during the war. Until someone produces that figure with acceptable source citations, I think I will stick with my current opinion based on the primary and secondary material.

L. :)

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

This sums it up,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiZ2ig8QUaI

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

One example:

On 8 August 1942, during the Betty attack off Guadalcanal, many bombers were shot down. You will find in several books that the destroyer USS Bagley approached a floating Betty and saw the crew sitting in the wings. The Japanese airmen fired their pistols on the US sailors and then commited suicide. But in the book "the first team and the guadalcanal campaign", I learned that at the same time, US ships captured 9 survivors of the Japanese bombers.

Another:

Tainan Kokutai lost 20 aircraft over New Guinea in 1942 according to one source. I know that at least two pilots were captured, so prisoners are at least 10% of the total losses (not counting pilots that survived being shot down and returned to their unit).

For what is worth, my own opinions is that percentage of Japanese airmen in Allied POW camps is far superior to the percentage in Japanese overall losses (KIA+POW).

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

See my post #4, above. Only 49 POWs for all of 1942 and the majority of those were sailors from a heavy cruiser that was sunk.

I thought we were talking about air crew, not just fighter pilots. Furthermore, it is really stretching things to extrapolate across the entire war years from one incident involving 20 aircraft and 2 captured pilots in 1942. The U.S. War Department kept very thorough and accurate figures on how many Japanese air crew were captured and the exact circumstances. If you wish to pursue the subject, you should be able to find some books that give that information. I know, for example, that the ATIS submitted a report at the end of the war on this to the Prisoner of War Board in Washington that gave Japanese POW statistics for the entire Pacific war. Very few Japanese air crew were taken prisoner, and those that were captured were usually too badly wounded or injured to take their own lives.

L.

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

I seem to remember reading, possibly in the Saburo Sakai book, that on offensive flights many Japaese pilots (aircrew?) chose not to wear parachutes. They were not ordered to do this but chose this action as baling out over enemy territory would lead to being taken prisoner. Apparantly chutes were worn and used over the homeland though, Sakai's book was called Samurai but I no longer have a copy,

Brian Bines

Just watched Revi16's YouTube clip did the Japanses pilot kill himslf or did the guy with the pistol shoot him ?

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

Yes, mostly Japanese airplanes. especially earliy stage of the war, were built with minor armor (some later war Japanese airplanes were well armored), but again it is a misconception that a burst of .50 machine gun fire then that Japanese aicraft would immediately burst into fire and going down. Again you'd better read some book relate to detail combat history of the pacific war. following this an example:

Darwin Spitfires: The Real Battle for Australia
http://www.amazon.com/Darwin-Spitfir...f=pd_ys_ir_b_1

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

That is exactly my point, the percentage of Japanese airmen lost over enemy territory that became POW were much higher than infrantrymen, and to less extent, this rule also applies to Japanese sailers, if they did not choose to go down whith the ship, then they would much easier to give up, for example, I recall about 20 Japanese sailers lost at sea after their ships sunk in the battle of Middleway, surrendered to US navy without offering any resistance. (Gordon W. Prange's "Miracle at Midway"0

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

Your POW figure is wrong. The Statistical Review: World War II,US War Department shows that 54 Japanese POWs were shipped to the continental USA in 1942, but that is not the total of all POWs. I suspect that these are only the POWs made in the Central Pacific area.

I have myself identified four cases where a total of 40 POWs were taken in this area:
7 December 1941: Kazuo Sakamaki, crewman of a midget submarine, captured at Pearl Harbor
18 April 1942: during the morning, after sinking the picket boat Nitta Maru #23 east of Japan, US ships picked up two Japanese survivors.
9 June 1942: two survivors of heavy cruiser Mikuma captured by submarine USS Trout (SS-202)
19 June 1942: 35 survivors of the aircraft carrier Hiryu captured by seaplane tender USS Ballard (AVD-10)

But these were not all POWs taken by US forces.

You are right that the biggest number of Japanese POWs in one time were the survivors of a heavy cruiser:
12 October 1942: 115 survivors of the cruiser Furutaka are captured off Guadalcanal

Other POWs were taken in the Solomons.

8 August 1942: 9 Japanese crew of Betty captured off Guadalcanal
11 September 1942: 6 survivors of a Betty shot down on the 11th captured by a patrol of Vatilau Island, near Florida (and a 7th killed)
11 October 1942: 109 survivors of destroyer Fubuki captured by US ships.
12-13 November 1942: destroyer Akatsuki sunk, 18 survivors later rescued by U.S. ships.
30 November 1942: the destroyer Takanami is sunk during the Battle of Tassafaronga: 197 killed; 48 survivors reached Guadalcanal, 19 of whom were captured by Americans

AFAIK most of these were then held in New Caledonia (Paita camp) or New Zealand (Featherstone camp). Hundred of POWs are said to have been in these camps in early 1943, but from the figures in COWRA, it seems to me difficult to count real POWs and interned civilians and merchant seamen or fishermen.

And then there are Japanese POWs taken by Australian and US in Australia or New Guinea, and which were detained in Australia. Some examples:

19 February 1942: Tadao Minami, an air gunner of a bomber involved in teh Darwin raid, bails out from his burning aircraft, swan to the shore and is captured.
28 February 1942: Lt. Katsuro Nagatomo of 4th Kokutai shot down and captured at Port Moresby
2 March 1942: 5 survivors of a Mavis of 21st Air Flotilla shot down on 15 February are captured by Australian on Bathurst Island.
28 April 1942: PO3c Yoshimitsu Maeda of Tainan Kokutai captured near Port Moresby
17 May 1942: PO2C Tsutomou Ito of Tainan Kokutai captured near Port Moresby

As for global figures rather than isolated cases, here is an interesting citation:

"While exact figures are elusive, a close approximation of the numbers of Japanese prisoners of war captured annually in the Southwest Pacific Area of operations (which encompassed Australia, New Britain, New Ireland, New Guinea, Borneo, the Celebes, and the Philippine Islands) is as follows: 1,167 in 1942; 1,064 in 1943; 5,122 in 1944; and 12,194 in 1945. Figures compiled from "Japanese Prisoners of War," May 19, 1945, box 333, entry 172, Records of the War Department General Staff, Military Intelligence Division (G-2), Record Group 165, National Archives, Washington, D.C."
http://studythepast.com/5388_spring1...een_reborn.pdf

This includes not Burma, where British claimed to have captured 3000 prisoners of war (later raised to 5000, but the later figure probably includes civilians). As for 1942, according to the book "Japanese prisoners of war in India, 1942-46: Bushido and barbed wire", less than nine Japanese were captured during the first Burma campaign, and about 30 during the first Arakan campaign (October 1942-April 1943).

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

L. Rizzotti wrote in part:
And your figures are the correct figures? I think there will always be disagreement on the total figures because, as you noted yourself, ground rules must be established regarding who to include and who to exclude. The figures will vary within a certain range no matter what books are consulted. The most acceptable figures, at least in my mind, will be those based on postwar special studies or tabulations prepared from official documents in the U.S. National Archives, such as the "Japanese Prisoners of War," May 19, 1945, that you cited.

The author of:
Frank, Richard B. Guadalcanal: The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle. New York: Penguin Books, 1992. ISBN: 0 14 01.6561 4. Pb. 800p. Illus. Maps. Extensive source notes. Index;
is widely considered to have written the definitive history of the Guadalcanal campaign. He spent nearly 20 years wading his way through the original archive documents and spent tens of thousands of dollars having Japanese language scholars translate the Japanese records for him. According to Frank on p.611, the Allies lost 264 aircraft and 420 aircrew during the Aug 42 - Feb 43 campaign, while the Japanese lost 446 aircraft and an estimated 1,260 aircrew. He does not give a figure for the number captured, but as you know from your own findings they were miniscule when compared to statistical equivalents from other air forces during World War II.

So, with that, I have achieved my objective, which was simply to get those interested to dig below the surface into the piles and piles of archival documents and the higher quality scholarly histories that exist. And you did that to a certain extent, so my work here is done because I now must get back to my own projects.

L.

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

Come on, Larry, you obviously can not dispute the number of Japanese POW in Mr Rizzotti's post, but of course you have right to have your own opinion to this issue, so how about we just agree to disagree?

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

Hi Mars -

That's exactly what I suggested way back in my Post #4.

It is fully obvious to anyone carefully reading this thread, Mars, that Rizzotti and I are in relative agreement.

It is also obvious that you have offered nothing here but opinion. Where is your research, Mars? Anyway, I hope you learned something. Who knows? One of these days I might just bump into you in the NARA College Park research room while you are digging into the boxes and boxes or archive records, or perhaps in the stacks at the Library of Congress while you are looking for the 102-volume set of Senshi Sōsho. I might even let you buy me a beer, too!

Have a good one,

L. ;)

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

I find the dicussion quite interesting and I'll say my piece.

The two above mentioned books I just recently read and found them good for information. Japanese prisoners of war in India, 1942-46 and The Anguish of Surrender. I found one book I picked out of a New Zealand publishing house Beyond Death and Dishonour. This is a book by a Naval officer who was captured in the Guadacanal area when his ship went down. He talks about his emotions and meeting other crews including airmen and other naval personal from other ships that were sunk. He spent his days in a New Zealand Pow camp.

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

IJN loss april 1942
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/forum/v...php?f=2&t=4965

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

Sorry, if I'da known this was going to get so many replies, I would have hurried back faster. Yes, Japanese aircrews were often killed outright due to lack of armor, and perhaps many didn't wear parachutes on offensive operations, but I was mostly curious about things like routine patrols, ferry operations, etc, where to loose an engine or run out of fuel and to go down might mean capture. I take it that it depended mostly on who the man was; in theory, most of them would have ditched, and then killed themselves if found by Americans, I guess.
Not all Japanese were as fanatic as they make out, but since they were fed terrifying stories about the awful things Americans did to Japanese prisoners, it would help encourage them to kill themselves. Most of them knew nothing about Americans, and expected to be tortured in unspeakable ways (in addition to being dishonored). If you expected to be subjected to the most gruesome and painful torture imaginable if captured, you'd probably kill yourself as well. Americans POWs were subjected to ill-treatment by Japanese, but nothing like what they expected the Americans to do to them (according to what their officers told them).
As for the video, I watched it, and the answer is he both killed himself and was shot. You can see him pull the pin from a grenade. If they didn't have guns on him already, they pulled them when they saw that. As the thing goes off, you see one or several smaller splashes, that would be the men shooting at him. The delay is either because they didn't have their guns ready, and it took a moment to pull them out and aim them when they saw him pull the pin, or they were already aimed at him and were startled by the explosion and fired at him. In any case, bullets hitting the water don't look like that. That's a single, larger blast from underneath the water, i.e. a grenade held against his stomach. The bullets were just overkill, and I'm not even sure they hit him.
That said, I can't help but wonder if the lack of Japanese prisoners taken early on is solely because they committed suicide, or if it was also because the US troops were shooting them rather than taking them prisoner. There wouldn't be any proof really, but I do know they encouraged them to hate the Japanese ("The only good jap is a dead jap" and all that), so it would not surprise me to find that many were shot in the water. Homicidal racism was the officially promoted doctrine in 1942, as far as I can see. They wouldn't outright tell them to shoot prisoners, but that doesn't mean mean wouldn't take things into their own hand on the rare occasion that an opportunity to take one POW presented itself. I know I've seen footage (maybe from the same reel that the grenade-suicide is from) that strongly appears to show submariners shooting a Japanese man in the water. It might have taken time for them to convince the men that they really NEEDED to keep some of them alive, and by then the Japanese were unwilling to allow themselves to be taken prisoner.
Amazing to think all this happened so recently, in the 20th century. I strongly suspect that humans don't, haven't and won't really change fundamentally.

Re: Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?
 

For the up close and personal side of the story, this is probably the preeminent account of it all:

WAR WITHOUT MERCY: RACE AND POWER IN THE PACIFIC WAR by John W. Dower. New York: Pantheon Books, 1986, xii, 399 pp., illustrated, $22.50, ISBN 0-394-50030-X.

It's still the benchmark after 27 years. You can find many reviews of the book online. Prof. Dower covers the American attitude towards the Japanese enemy and the "take no prisoners" behavior of most of our guys who fought in the Pacific. Many documented examples.

L.