White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

My understanding of the White Spiral on the Black Spinner is Optical deception for Allied air gunners. The logic was that the spinner spiral put off bomber gunners aim. It made them concentrate (the eyes catch the spiral movement) on the spinner as a aiming point so overshooting the fast moving target (deflection angle) when attacking at an angle to the bomber.

The time frame of the introduction of this design in the Luft. Staffels matchs the USAAF daylight bombing efforts of 1943 onwards.

Same could be said for other designs as well, for instance the factory 1/3 White on 2/3 RLM 70 spinner.

Thoughts?

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

I recall hearing the old bromide about the spiral being off-putting for the gunners, but I read a pilot's comments (I CANNOT recall who it was) from much-earlier in the war, when the "Kullerschnauze" 1/3 + 2/3 segments came into common use, stating that the flickering effect was a recognition feature that worked for an aircraft in the mirror, behind you. One quick glance, and you knew it wasn't an R.A.F. fighter.

I think the spiral tends to disappear at high speeds, and the gunner is aiming at a dark, rather-small frontal aspect of the oncoming machine in any case.

The earliest spiral I recall was on Tiedmann's 2./JG 3 Bf 109E-4 WNr.1990, and the line is so fine/tight, it seems unlikely to be serving any purpose besides decorative. Rudi Müller's Bf 109F-4 WNr.10073 of 6./JG 5 was wearing a broad spiral well before they became common.

Sorry I cannot quote my source, GRM

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

I think at least part of the reason was as a warning measure on the ground. The Luftwaffe didn't paint prop blade tips a bright colour (as the RAF did) but painting the spinner would have provided a clue that the prop was moving or stationary. If you could see the spiral, it was safe to approach = fewer accidents to ground crew. The earlier dark spinner with a white segment could have served a similar purpose.

I can't believe in the idea that you could dazzle gunners with it because the prop was turning too fast for any effect to be visible. You'd only see a composite blur, wouldn't you? Also, why paint spirals on aircraft that were to operate by night, as did happen?

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

Nick has the point. RHAF used the same system (spiral or 1/3-2/3 on spinner) generally because safety reasons on the ground to see, propeller blades were moving or stationary.
Still, I identified one of such fatal accidents in WWII in Hungary, when an unfortunate, careless bloke walked into the moving propeller circle in an airfield (you don't want to know the result - incidentally in that case it was an older type, and it had no paintings on the spinner).

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

And they paint spirals on the central bullet fairing of airliner turbofans these days.

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

And this is what it looks like in use,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBsRBSPAz4U

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

... it is nothing more than an old fairy tale and legend :D

As already mentioned there were safety reasons!

Allied air gunners saw the 109 as a fast pinhead far away and had
really other problems as to look at the spiral!

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

Interesting, but regardless of the effects, or perceived effects, the order to paint these was officially done in the summer of 1944.

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

I read about that order in a book, but it didn't get into specifics. Is that document available somewhere? Just curious as to what is says.

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

http://www.ghostbombers.com/markings/inv1.html

Scroll down to "25 June 1944"

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

Ahhhh thank you very much. Now I'm begging to understand the method applied to this spinner.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/...psb0a9e8c1.jpg

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

That´s WNr 163824, isnt it? Built by Mtt Regensburg, July '44.
This Bf 109G-6 is a plane which had been repaired several times. I think this is either a spinner of an earlier batch or one of the last spinner with a "Kullerschnauze".
Brought to "spiral" standard by the last operational owner of this 109.
On earlier photographs of 163824 the white segment is not visible.

Regards

roland

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

It's obviously a nonsense to confuse enemy gunners, as not only Axis fighters, but bombers, recce, etc. had also the Spiralschnauze.

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

Yes that is W.Nr.163824. According to the book, 'Augsburg's Last Eagles Colors, Markings and Variants' By Brett Green, he says the spinner most likely original.

I guess a good way to find out for sure would be to find other spinners painted the same way, more or less.

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

Hello,

unfortunately I noticed this thread only very recently. I must say that I do not believe the impression by the movie because a motion picture is a close sequence of static pictures. This can produce unrealistic effects like e.g. the wheels of a running car standing still or even turning in the opposite direction.
The Daimler Benz engine of a Me 109 could be running at over 2500 rpm, and its reduction gear worked at a ratio of somewhat above 0.5. so it seems to be realistic to assume that the prop often was spinning at around 1200 rpm, that is 20 rotations per second. Although I have never seen it in reality I cannot imagine that at that rpm the human eye would perceive anything else but a solid mix of the two colors. So, at least rationally, the purpose of the spiral spinner could not have been confusing the gunners.

Best regards,
klemchen

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

I just seen that today in real life. I was watching a car rim at about 62kph, depending on the angle, I could see the rim speed up, slow down, looked to be stopped moving, and reversing, while still going at 60kph. There's a name for this phenomenon I just can't remember at the moment.

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

Hi Oberst

The phenomenon is known as stoboscopy.

Cheers,

D.B.

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

D.B, would you mean "stroboscopy"?

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

Airliners have a similar spiral on the hub of the fan at the front of the engine. When the engine is running it is still visible as a white area which seems to "pulse" if that makes sense.
Nowadays it is a safety feature rather than an IFF marking as on a Luftwaffe spinner.

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

Yes, the infernal typo rears it's head again.

Cheers,

D.B.

Re: White Spiral on Me 109G Spinners
 

In the 1990s, the RAF took to painting stroboscopic patterns on the propeller blades of its surviving propellor-driven aircraft, and I can confirm its effectiveness. As these must have rotated at much the same speed as Luftwaffe fighters, perhaps a similar effect was still visible - though I agree that it could only have been of any significance at close ranges.

Similarly helicopter rotors have the top of one blade painted contrastingly to the others - although these will have slower rotation rates. In this case it seems exceedingly unlikely to be a ground safety reason.