possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

The swastika shown in image 4 here is a GI war trophy

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...2306027&type=3

and is marked on the reverse "Taken from tail of an ME-
109 Milano, Italy"
Now,the first Allied units entered liberated Milan on April, 27, 1945.
If it is really coming from a messerschmitt (any ideas? dimensions seem right, the background color... not so much), could it belong to one of those ANR fighters that retained the hakenkreuz? Or there were still German 109s around in the Milan area at the end of the war?

Best,

Andrea

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

More as dubious imo.
1) The ANR Bf109s had their swastikas overpainted with the Italian colours.
2) Late-war Bf 109s mostly had wooden tailfins, this is metal obviously
3) Metal tailfins of the Bf 109 - both the high and the low one had a horizontal dividing line in the area covered by the swastika. This one is in one piece
4) The blueish colour seems more than strange

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

Hi!

Roland:


Most Me109 tails were metal...even that late-war ones. I have owned many tail swastikas from 1944-1945, and only 1 in 10 were wood.

This specific one depicted is 100% wood (not aluminum)

Is is cut from a tall tail wood Me109 tail

The cam color is perfect...no issues there.


100% German late-war Me109 wood swastika (not ANO)...but still nice!

Mike

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

By the date of 27 April 1945 there were no German Bf 109s operating in Italy apart from those of NAGr.11 based at Udine - Campoformido, several hundred kilometers from Milan...!

Since the only unit roughly operating in that area was 1° Gruppo Caccia ANR, whose Bf 109s were marked with all-Italian markings on fuselage, I seriously doubt that the source could be that unit.

One possibility is that the piece was recovered in one of Italian factories in Milan area that were known to be working for the Germans (Agusta for example), repairing and reconditionings their planes, and that the tail in question possibly belonges to a fuselage of a Luftwaffe aircraft (or parts of it) still being worked on or left abandoned in some workshop...

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

Ah yes...but there were many wrecks left about. I suspect it was an abondonded wreck...as opposed to one that was simply left behind by a retreating unit.

Would you not agree?

Mike

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

Dear All,

Thanks for this very interesting thread - and other threads.
Just one point:
Somewhere, in the world, there are many countries from where it's impossible to link with:

- Facebook
- Tweet
- Youtube video
- All the web address which do includes the word "blog" (for instance: Falkein (Neil) blog and CptFarrel (Anders) blog)
- Without talking about some photos on eBay (It depends on the way they have been loaded and configurated) .. But this I can manage.
- ...

So, please, can you load the picture?? Thank you very much.

Best regards, Franck.

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

Ach! Many thanks Oberst.

- Should be wise to ask (through Facebook ;)) the owner what are the dimensions.
- The white wall background and the grass make good colour chart for comparison.
- That deep blue looks like the blue we can find on Erla production line late war machines (See LW im Focus and the same picture posted - not long time ago - by Rasmussen in TOCH if I remember well)
BUT!: Did fins included in this painting process?

Regards, Franck.

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

I wouldn't just agree, I'd ask what evidence there was that "there were many wrecks left about." Bf 109 losses over Northern Italy at the end of the war were not that many because of the relatively small number of aircraft deployed and the severe shortages of fuel.

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

Veltro´s post is most plausible. As the wooden tails were fabricated by subcontractors those tail units may have been delivered fully painted to the rpair shops in Italy.
Maybe this item was cut out from a delivery of such tails and not from a complete airframe.
Can the rear of the swastika be shown? The glueing of the wooden interior for the main construction would be interesting.
The colour is still puzzling. I know two types of prefab wooden tails:
1) the usual green/gray combination applied with templates, with black/white swastikas
2) the mottled green on RLM76 combination applied with spray guns, with black swastikas

Obviously this must be Type 1. The "gray" colour can be the brighter version of RLM74?

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

Nah, this is a LATE WAR RLM75

I have a control stick from an Me109, inscribed from the Vet that he took in on June 11, 1944...only 10 months before this tail was claimed. The airport it was claimed from had around 15 various Fw190 and Me109 wrecks left there at the time he claiumied it.

Color on this tail is late-war RLM75 taken with a flash, and appearing much brighter.

Primer was either a bright green or bright yellow (not the standard RLM45)...thus giving a different shade.

Mike

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

Quite interesting, Mike.
Painting was done according Flieglackkette 22, i.e. a special green primer to keep humidity from the plywood.
There might be the chance to discover remnants of RLM82 dunkelgrün green blotches at the border of the sheet adjoining the bars of the swastika.
A final question: Late Bf 109K with wooden tails give me the impression the swastika might be applied as a Schiebebild i.e. decal because of the bad adhesive qualities of those markings. Just watch the tailfin example in JaPo´s Bf 109K opus with two paint layers. Can your sample be recognized as painted or as decal? Thx.

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

I personally have never seen a decal for the swastika...all were painted...

The one in Japo's book was 100% spray painted using a template...as opposed to the earlier ones that were hand-painted.
;)

Mike

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

The Japo tail shows TWO different swastikas with different alignments - one sprayed and the other having almost disappeared and flaked off in big sherds.
The bad consistency of those swastikas can be viewed on different contemporary photographs. The use of Schiebebilder on late-war planes (in cockpits e.g. and maintenance signs) and the deployment of unskilled carpenter workers made me think of this possibility...

Re: possible ANR bf109 late war spoil?
 

Immediately after I started this thread I was deported for family holidays and only today I have had a chance to check it. I beg your pardon for this delayed mail and I do thank all of you for the very interesting and enlightening discussion.
As far as the swastika on the tail is concerned - I know this is wishful thinking in its purest form... - I wonder if it could have belonged to a late replacement aircraft of 1o Gruppo Caccia that had not been painted in ANR markings until the end of the war or to a 109 of 2o Gruppo Caccia, whose last resting place was Orio al Serio. An airport not so far away (50 km) from Milan, at least from the point of view of an American soldier!