RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Regarding my previous posting dealing with my discovery that RLM 83 had indeed a darkblue color some questions about RLM 81/82 appeared. I would like to share the other breathtaking discovery I made. Read the text carefully:
Test order E2-45/19 (Flight verification of camouflage „Land“)
• Report June 1943: The to darken RLM 70/71 will be replaced with color 281 H (olivgreen) and B657 (brightgreen). After 9 month of environmental testing they are very lightresistant.
• Report August 1943: The new colors RLM 81 and 82 (brown tint) introduced
• Report October 1943: The exposure of the colors (also small production batches) after finishing the summer sun period showing no discoloration.
• Report December 1943: RLM 81 and 82 introduced. Lightresistant without objection
• Report February 1944: RLM 81 and 82 accordingly report 2138/43 dated 02. July 1943 introduced. Lightresistant, including serial production, without objection.


The question is where are we now?

• First is: Now we knew the real reason of the need of the new camouflage colors RLM 81/82. It is not raw material shortages, is not better ground camouflage. The reason is that RLM 70/71 when longer used has the tendency to darken that the camouflage effect was lost.
• The new colors were introduced much earlier than previously thought (October 1943, small production batches).
• There must a more than a handful aircraft with the new camouflage in Travemünde. The reports described a Do 217 coded RO+GK.
• It is now very possible that the greens used for JG 54 aircraft in 1942 and 1943 are test paint sample of RLM 81/82 for troop trail.
• Why it needs so long till summer 1944 that RLM 81/82 was used on mass production fighters? The answer is simple: The manufactory has huge stocks of the “old” paint.
• Why we can see RLM 81 brown oliv / darkgreen camouflages? This is a RLM 81/71 camouflage! I am pretty sure that a today still undiscovered order exist that allows, if the stock of paints was exhausted to replace the not available paint with the old paint. This allows the manufactory to paint the fighter aircraft in RLM 81/75 or 71 and allows 70 or 74/82 camouflage variation.

By the way: Attached you will find a scan of one page of my November 1943 monthly report. This is to prevent that someone had the idea to post that he missed the evidences of what I wrote. Believe it or not: The history of RLM 81/82/83 must be rewritten.
And please keep in mind I am a German native and I have access to all the files in Germany and, much more important, I can read the text of such documents and understand the content properly.
Looking forward to read all the posts and hone your skills in Germany language

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Michael, what were the original German words for "The to darken RLM 70/71" please? This doesn't make sense in English.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Last lines of that report:

Entwicklung und Erprobung einer tarnung für Mittelmeereinsatz.: Abgeschlossen mit S-Bericht vom 10.11.43. Farbton 83 dunkelblau in Verbindung mit Farbton 72 schwarzgrün für See- und 70 dunkelgrün für Landflugzeuge zur Einführung vorgeschlagen.

'Development and testing of a camouflage for Mediterranean use.: Finished with S-report from 10.11.43. 83 dark blue hue proposed in conjunction with 72 hue black green for sea and 70 dark green for land planes to be introduced.'

Seems it only pertains to Mediterranean use only. Possible that RLM 83 would remain Dark Green for anything other then MTO. Just speculating here, no hard facts.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I'd differ a little in the translation: "Development and testing of a camouflage for operations in the Mediterranean: Concluded with [the] S-Report of 10.11.43. Paint colour 83 proposed in conjunction with paint colour 72 black-green for maritime [aircraft] and 70 dark green for land aircraft."

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Hola,
the original sentence in German is:
Die nachdunkelnden Farbtöne 70 u. 71 der bisherigen Landtarnung werden abgelöst durch die Farben 281 H olivgrün und B 657 hellgrün ....

I hate the discussion, but you have finaly figured out that RLM 83 is darkblue! It is hard for me to explain, but their are strict rules in RLM and to avoid any confusion they never gave a new part (In our case a new paint) an old number. The German armed forces today made it the same way. Again there are only two documents exist that listed RLM 83. No surface protection list exist that listed RLM 83, because the paint was for unit or depot maintenance level, not for production. This darkgreen is a darkgreen variation of RLM 81 or the use of RLM 70/71 with 81/82.

Best Regards from Germany

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I'd translate that as "Paint colours 70 and 71 of the current land camouflage, [which] get darker, will be replaced by paints 281 H olive green and B 657 light green …"

It is clear from the rest of what Michael quotes about testing that 70 and 71 get darker after prolonged exposure to sunlight.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I find this statement about darkening very puzzling, because it is seems clear from b+w photos that 70/71 have very little contrast when new, yet considerable contrast when older. 70 is pretty dark when new anyway: how much darker can it get? It would seem from the photographic evidence that 71 gets lighter with age.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Comparison:

Original RLM 70/71 colour foto (general approx. shades):
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/...psbeb8c26c.jpg

Converted to black & white
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/...psc3ccf537.jpg

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Hi Graham,

I will say more: I've never seen paints darkening with time under sun/weather effects. (Just look at your old car if you haven't closed garage)
But, and too, the weathering effect depends of the colour/tone (Hence the contrast enhancing you are talking about when getting older) ; for example, it is well known among the sailors that a red sail is more resistant than a white one (same quality, same fabric, same factory)... Without talking about a blue one which is catastrophic!!

Regards, Franck.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Fully agree!!!

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Agreed that it sounds very unusual but could it be a strong black pigment that remained stable while the green elements were faded?

70 and 71 seems to have been rushed into production as early versions didn't spray very well and wouldn't adhere when mottled or misted onto aircraft.

/Anders

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I personally had the opportunity of examining a contemporary RLM 70/71 camouflage from 1940/41 (Ju 88A and Hs 126 from DTM Berlin). I got the impression that any yellow portions of those paints had vanished from the surface, giving it a more blackish or greyish appearance.This may work well over conifer-covered areas but over a landscape with mixed woodlands and huge portions of fields and meadows this combination certainly would be too dark.
Otherwise it wouldn´t have to be necessary for JG 54 to test and switch to different coulour sytems when entering the Eastern war scenario

Regards

Roland

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

A document issued by Messerschmitt Augsburg on 29 July 1944 lists RLM 81 (olive brown) and RLM 82 (light green) as replacement for RLM 74 and RLM 75 on fighter, reconnaissance and ground attack aircraft. An official Hungarian translation will be included in my upcoming book on Hungarian fighter colours.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Is that a typo? Would it not be 74/75 rather than 75 and 76, as 76 was a light blue underside color.

But it still raises the question of why the switch from the "grays/greys" of air superiority aircraft, to the Browns and Greens of ground concealment.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Generally, Grey's were offensive colours, brown/greens are defensive colours. IE: Grey blend in with the sky, green/browns hide the aircraft on the ground, especially in mid 1944 and up when the skies are filled with allied aircraft. Mind you not all a/c got the brown/green camouflage, even up to the end of the war.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I do know that, but how many fighter aircraft ultimately wore 81/82. It was often a mix of gray and green or two greens.

I was under the impression that 81/82 were to replace 70/71 as on the Do 335 and Me 262.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I would guess FW 190's had the 81/82 scheme the most. But I assume an aircraft repaint would be done at a field repair depot, or at the airfield, once you get there its however the guy with the paint gun interpets the instructions on how to paint. PLUS they had to use up the previous colours first, according to the Docs I've read.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Yes, that was a typo. I corrected it. Thanks for pointing it out.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

The order stated that all aircraft that previously would have been painted in 70/71 were to be painted in 81/82 so from the beginning it was a pure replacement of those colors. Later on a new order was given that all aircraft were to be painted in 81/82. If I recall correctly both these orders have been found in documents so it is not speculation.

Cheers / Anders

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I would love to see that actual reference. And if by chance it did exist, it would seem that it was not fully complied with.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Hola Folks,
just return from a business trip and read all the comments regarding my postings Hornets Nest and RLM 81/82. Sitting in Front of my computer and I am amazed about that what I read. Maybe now I am again and usual the typical "ugly" German, but my statement to the discussion is:

• I am amazed that this discussion absolutely lacked basic knowledge from well published original paper work about RLM-paints and lacquers!

Yes, we haven’t the whole picture, but we have enough for a rough picture. With my discovered facts the history of RLM 81/82 and 83 must be rewritten!


Facts (My quotations are for my second edition Hikoki book)

• RLM 81/82 introduced for replacement of RLM 70/71. Yes, enough evidences.
  “Nachdunkeln” is the original statement in the text. I also have no better explanation for this, but consider that all RLM-paints, - lacquers and so on are artificial resin lacquers. A technology just invented. Today no one is in the position to make any statement about the behavior of the paint during longer use!!
• RLM 81/82 as replacement for RLM 74/75.
  Document not discovered yet!
  Maybe in Sammelmitteilung 2 under camouflage (page 346) we have more than a hint. Maybe this camouflage guide was the source? But I am pretty sure that this short statement was the source for the mystery of Darkgreen (former RLM 83)/75 camouflage, because the statement was, that RLM 74 discontinued. Today, with my discovered documents the sentence has a different sense: RLM 74/75 was replaced with RLM 81/82, therefore 74 was discontinued, but RLM 75 was used for Nightfighters! Understand everyone this different sense? The discovered documents contain a lot of this missing links.
• The variation of RLM 81/82. Sammelmitteilung 1 (page 343) RLM QA received no color charts, therefor no acceptance inspection of the paint’s shade. This is a fact that RLM had published!!
  The discovery of the paints in Czech Republic mentioned on the JaPo home page support this. I read the label as RLM 81 and it contain a “Darkgreen Paint”.
  This Green/green camouflages (sometimes mentioned as 81/81 camouflage) is nothing more nothing less than a 70/81, 81/70 combination for using up old paint stocks with a, maybe Darkgreen shade of RLM 81 (Page 344, application of color shades 81 and 82, and Do 335 documents, page 268)

I don’ want to be rude or so, when I wrote that the discussion lacked knowledge, but without these basics understanding every discussion is senseless! And the basics are published since years! First you have to read, then to understand and then to discuss!
Again for me now a lot more makes sense. I hope I will discover more documents in the future to bring more light into this darkness.
Looking forward to read your replies.
Best Regards from Germany

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

As I understand it, RLM lacquers that reached basic approval stage were then tested for tensile strength and fade qualities after 6 month exposure to weather and sunlight, and had to meet a minimum requirment of 2 year life span in open air conditions or 1500 flying hours. 5 years being set as realistic maximum. Paint care products were used, and a single application had to last for 100 takeoffs or 2 months of bad weather operations. The end results was a very high quality finish.

I am an automotive painter, going on 25 years now. I worked with lacquers, acrylics, polyurethane, enamels, everything. I never seen paint darken due to the environment. The only way I can see if there is a chemical reaction somehow. But even that, would show right away.

I'm not saying I know the answer, but I'm not convinced of a darkening effect on paint in outside environments. Maybe 71 was lightening(?).

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Oberst, read posts 11 and 12, there seems to have been trouble with 70/71 and quality. The info in my post comes from Jürgen Kiroff, written in an appendix to Ken Merricks two volume work on Luftwaffe camouflage. In post 12 there's a good example of what have been the reason for the paint darkening.

Even if there was an unlikely typo or misunderstanding in the document as to how the quality of 70/71 was bad it doesn't make the document less valid does it?

I agree that it's surprising that such paint passed the rigorous quality control of the RLM, was there a change in the formula that created unforseen troubles I wonder?


Cheers / Anders

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Could the term 'Nachdunkeln' when used in this sense be translated as 'dulling [=de-saturation]' (with time)? Fading...? or 'mattes' over time?

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I agree that the basic translation of "darkening" doesn't really fit what you would expect (i.e. colours usually fade) and maybe there is another sense of the word, or the wrong word was used (human error is always a possibility).

On another point, what earthly use was paint that lasted years on a combat aircraft that would be lucky to last weeks? This sounds like a peacetime standard which may of course not have been adapted to suit wartime conditions; once something is in a book of regulations it can be hard to change.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Hi Michael,

I totally agree with your post #21 ... that's the reason I opened your Hikoki book where I did find this extract Under!
Enjoy it.

Regards, Franck.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

In post #12 I wanted to explain this effect "nachdunkeln". Some yellow pigments are not stable according to my experiences. In case a colour loses its yellow portion through dissolution of those pigments it inevitably will change its general character.
A simple example: In case of green lossing its yellow portion it will change towards blue.
The Ju88 fuselages in Berlin wear a "RLM 70/71" camouflage which can be described as two greys with a slight greenish touch. The colour has NOT faded, it looks darker.
And this might be the effect of "nachdunkeln" which is described in the official paper.
Michael Ullmann, from memory some "chromium" pigments come to my mind. Can the pigment be named exactly which has caused this colour shift? Isn´t it possible the ominous brown-green is nothing more than an attempt to create more stable greens by adding yellowish-brown pigments?

Servus

Roland

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Hi!

Interesting...

The JG54 green cam job in 1942/1943 was not done with a "new" German spec paint -it was a RUSSIAN spec.

The green color used on the Russian front, was John Deere Green.

Yes, that is correct.

The Russians had bought numerous supplies of tractors and military equipment manufactured by John Deere FROM the US. They were also supplied with the correct paint (John Deere Green).

Repairs and cam jobs DONE in Russia, were completed with RUSSIAN technology. This is why we find IMPERIAL (not metric) screws and fitting on repair jobs on German wrecks found in Russia.

The Germans were not using RLM spec colors - they were using what was on hand in Russia. In this case, captured Russian materials and paints.

John Deere Green is the exact color that was found on the Fw190 that is with the Flying Heritage collection and is now flying. It is also the exact paint they used when painting her during the restoration.

So these early aircraft were not using a "new" paint - just what was on hand at the time - in this case, John Deere Green...

Mike

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

It may have been a close colour match, but you do not use tractor paint on aircraft! This is an old and totally discounted tale. Aircraft paint is different from other paints, a speciality in itself because of the specific requirements for adhesion to light metals under a wide range of conditions (pressure and temperature), light weight and low pigment size (for low drag). None of which apply to tractor paint other than temperature to a more limited extent. If the paint was of low quality then this affected the performance of the aircraft - top speed and maximum altitude reduced, fuel consumption increased.

Anyone who tells you that car paint, tractor paint, ship paint or household emulsions were used on aircraft (other than for decoration on a limited area) does not know his subject. There were very specific regulations about the application of paint, with inspectors making sure they were kept to. The Luftwaffe was no less strict on these matters than any other nation.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Graham, you need to move beyond that, because what ever paint was at hand may have had to do. USAAF used Corps of Engineer sand in the Pacific. After reading the monograph on Malta Spitfires, some of those aircraft wore as much as four coats of paint.

And there is no real evidence that aircraft on Wasp were painted in aircraft paint.

Sometimes the need for proper camou trumps the 6mph or so of lost speed.

As for tractor paint, I've never seen anyone present anything but rumor. The Germans overran VVS airfields, I'm sure there was some paint about.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

It doesn't matter how good the bar story is: 1+1 does not equal 3 and aircraft paints were specialist products applied when authorised under controlled (and inspected) conditions. There were some pretty poor paints used in WW2: I could mention the RAF's Special Night RDM2, or the Luftwaffe's night distemper, but these were all authorised issues for use according to orders. Aircraft were not painted with tractor paint, sports car paint, or naval wooden deck stain, just on the whim of junior officers or otherwise-unemployed airmen.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Sure...and the Germans were supposed to have 3 square meal per day while fighting in Stalingrad...and that never happened.

"Textbook" is one thing...real field conditions is another. I guarantee you that if the German government was having issues supplying their troops with food and supplies, I HIGHLY doubt they were making "RLM PAINT"
a priority - the crews would have used whatever paint is on hand (and yes John Deere Paint was used from captured factories). They would not have waited around for that "all important supply of RLM spec summer aircraft paint"...when they had Russian paint on hand - this is a known fact.

I have seen NUMEROUS German types of paint on many wrecks I have been involved with...and I can tell you 100% that REGARDLESS of what is drawn up in "official paperwork", field conditions were quite different. Most of the later-war aircraft paint peeled only after a few months of being applied - as documented in numerous photographs. This was due to low quality and sub-standard paint.

This idea that "all paint used was specifically "aircraft quality" type is nonsense.

In addition...I know of one aircraft wreck that was painte in NINE different shades of paint:

76 (2 shades), 74, 75, 66 (yes, external paint), 81, 74, 80, and 82.

Where is the textbook on that?

Mike

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

To get the full picture you can't just study the documents and official orders, but it's equally impossible to use the findings on wrecks only. Even if you have found hundreds of wrecks it's still a much too small percentage to speak in general terms. Just because the green on that Fw190 matched John Deere Green doesn't mean it was and it certainly doesn't mean that it was "the green" used by the Luftwaffe in the east as there must have been several.

Also, it's as far as I know not certain were these aircraft were repainted, they may just as well have been painted in Germany or at a depot far to the rear were use of unauthorized paint would have been unacceptable. I. and III./JG3 for example deployed with their aircraft painted up in a very special scheme that was done in Germany.

/Anders

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

harrison987- do you have info where and on what relics were present any of paints you mentioned?

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I was thinking.. Green is a secondary color that is created by mixing two primary colors--yellow and blue. If the yellow pigments faded, that would leave a blue hue.
The blue would may be darker, may be lighter.., depending on what other hues are mixed in. Hard to say.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Oberst- green is in most cases based on chromium oxide green pigment then you have other options like black and yellow mix, black and ochre mix and as you say, blue and yellow. If you see any US Pacific airplanes you can note that dark blue can much fade out. As well there is cans found out, there is remained documents as well many relics, I am sure that in deep research can give full answer on colors. Did anybody try to do spectral analysis of the preserved paint samples?

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Them old pigments are not the same as used today. A fact few remember, I think. Look it up. Them Luftwaffe (exteriour) paints were Epoxy based, that crack and crase like hell and adhere poorely. Not really bad quality as stated earlier in this thread. High quality stuff used the wrong way (in my opinion). Epoxy is likely heavier than Oil based paints (as used on US and British planes) that were more "flexible" but faded real quick. The pigments faded but not carrier base (Epoxy) on Luftwaffe aircraft, that cracked and crased, and collected dirt real quick. I likely never have seen a photo of a "super-clean" Ju 88, except before assembly and flight (and perhaps a prototype)!

I have several samples of original Luftwaffe, RAF and USAAF paints on some pieces of alumin and have used these for my drawings.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Hello edNorth,

Can you point me to the source of Luftwaffe planes painted with Epoxy & the pigment differences? When you talk about cracking and crazing, the only time I see that is IF the surface isn't properly prepped, or ACRYLIC is used with non ACRYLIC paints/primers.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

I have interview few times one craftsman here who was foreman for paint shop and they use German paints in aircrafts manufacture. They used enamel based and nitro based paints. Most of parts were ditch into bath of paint during production. Only external camouflage was spray painted with nitro paints. Each paint had its own procedure and mix ratio with thinners. They have pot and they measure time of paint leak from pot (with hole at bottom). Testing of color was made on metal sheet samples before it goes into production.

Epoxy was discovered in 1930 but I am not sure that paints are used that fast (thank you for info). My knowledge goes that first use is reinforcing of fabric on control tabs but there was used phenolic resin. The same resin was used in Yugoslav pre war industry and first product ever completely made as composite was US trainer Timm N2T.

Thank you for info and sorry for a bit off topic.

Re: RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled
 

Oberst: I think my reference to Epoxy (Resin) versus nitro-enamel paint is found in (shomewere) in K Merrick & J Kiroff "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1933 - 1945" (Classic Colours).
- Certainly the sample of RLM 71 (from Ju 88 D-5) I have in my posession physically feels as Epoxy (thick and brittle!) but has touches of RLM 02 or similar as overspray, altogeather some three or four layers on one Stkz. letter overpainted with unit letter and that also overpainted with (possibly "wellenmuster") or downtoning for overwater flight (not RLM 72/73, only gray overspray simulating naval colours I think).
- But then there is lots of colour discussion in Merrick/Kiroff book. A recommended reading for all.
- Pigment references is from memory: that Old Humbrol paints were using pigments from an factory that was sold to China afterwards, and someone (Museum) was able get correct pigments from there and make enough for repaint of a restored aircraft.
Having ex- 40+ years of (Luftwaffe & other) modelling under my belt knowlegdge is there, but finding the exact referance again is sometimes harder. I too read that todays pigments were designed after the war and they fade slower (are artificial pigments for giving the colour to the paints)