UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Hello

parts of an unknown german bomber have been found on a north France beach.
A MG mount is still recognizable. Enough to identify the type of the a/c? certainly a bomber.

Thanks for answer

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

I doubt it would be sufficient to only use the mg mount to identify the aircraft since these were often standardised and fitted to more than one aircraft type. Most likely the other remains could give more clues than the mg mount.

/Mike

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

a picture of a Do17 force-landed on the beach of Berck, there where the parts of the german bomber have been recently found. It's quite certain that it is the really a/c.
It seems a, a/c of the KG2 (ruban nose?)

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

looks very likely to be a DO17:

There are many nice pictures there,

http://lemurdelatlantique.lebonforum...plage-de-berck

you will improve your French tonight, guys !

GC

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

wise62 et al,

I ran this against the EoE Luft Loss Photo DB and didn't locate any KG2 loss, which the nose band suggests. Looks like something from the BoB or The Blitz period. There is something wrong with the photo that you posted, as the starboard prop appears to be only two blades, and I don't understand the strange dark bands or lines on the nose and the side of the nacelle. I'd certainly like to document this one for our loss DB, and even possibly for an EoE Color Profile, so I hope that this one can be resolved and identified.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

It looks as though it has been photoshopped, with the starboard cowling and prop added, though why the 2-blade prop? Perhaps to leave it obvious that this part was not original?

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Larry, Graham et al...



I agree that the starboard propellor looks 'Photoshopped'. I did think that the horizontal stripes on the side of the forward fuselage might be a reflection of some form of layering on the sand bank or dune that the aircraft is facing, but not sure it would have reflected to the same extent we see here on the inside of the starboard cowling... I would've expected some shadow from the fuselage to be present. Also, it looks way too 'polished' and given the rather faded/matt appearance of much of the rest of the aircraft, I think the fuselage and cowling sides have definitely been doctored.

We haven't been told where the image originated from but if it was perhaps from ebay or the like, then perhaps someone has tried to blank out superimposed text and then tried to restore image to something like the original.

Regards,

Paul

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Nah guys, that Luftwaffe Do 17 Z (I presume) photo shows it lying in a puddle of water (sea-water), merely mirroring the bent props that way, and those "strange" horizontal bands on fuselage and cowlings are leftovers of (salt) dirt from the seawater. Likely "the banding" having been created by the tides coming and going, and salt drying on the surface, at various heights. Its quite tempting blame Photoshop´ing but I am certain this is not such. Diagonal Light band on nose indeed suggests KG 2 aircraft.

Ed

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Hi.

Agree with Ed on this one, nicely spotted.

But now I kind of wonder how to make a model out of this crash and get the same effect... Hmmmmm.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Hi Guys,

Gilles gave a link; good to use!

Picture has been taken by a LW Wart based in Berck. Crash occured in October 1940 according to interview.
Most probably the picture posted by Wise62 comes from the same source.
Wart lived in Bad Honnef in 1978!

Regards, Franck.

PS: Of course Ed's right!

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Still doesn't look right to me albeit I agree with Ed's analysis. Band would indicate KG 2 but nothing matches Sep 40-1941

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Hello,

One of our EoE Researchers has located two photos of what must be this a/c in the EoE Photo DB. There were two photos posted on the "TOCH Luftwaffe Board Post by Volker_DO4NC 6-29-08" showing U5+FS, of 8./KG2 FL in the sand on a French beach with the rear fuselage shot to hell from a fighter attack.

My notes with these photos: "Source lives in Heidelberg, Germany, and his grandfather apparently worked for the Dornier factory during the war, as a civilian. There were a number of 8./KG2 Do17Zs that returned damaged from England on 8/13/40 with wounded crewmen. This was probably one of them. Another possible date is 9/15/40; three of that crew were KIA." So two good date possibilities here: 13.08.40 or 15.09.40. I'd sure like to pin this down to the correct one, either one of these or some other date. I consider this a candidate for one of our EoE Color Profile a/c.

Regarding the strange effect on the stbd prop blade, I fully agree with Ed North's interpretation of the mirror image in the water. Nicely spotted ED. I also agree with the idea that sand layering due to the tides accounts for the strange striations on the nose and engine nacelle, which are magnified on the image by the mirror effects on the surface of the pool of water.

We're getting a lot closer on this one.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

From what I can see, none of the 8/KG 2 ac lost on 13 Aug 40 were more than 20% apart from the one that came down at Whitstable. There was a U5+FS lost 15 Sep 40 with 3 missing and one killed. Location for this is 'Kanal' but I cannot see how 3 missing and one killed could match the ac in the photo?? However, I stand by to be corrected!

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Thanks all for the compliments. August 1940 to me seems plauseble.
Just my two cents here: Them "stripes" on engine cowlings and fuselage sides suggest to me there was very hot weather when this happened, i.e. lots of evaporation, and August 1940 was hot (!?!) - and another thing: A normal belly landing usually was about 20%, at least when Ju 88´s were involved. Now suppose, if first report of an Do 17 belly landing on a beach be estimated at 20%, but the info it had been shot up before, did not reach the decision makers (requesting a replacement - untill later) besides it becoming flooded with saltwater and properly ballasted with sand - then probably the amend to 100% never reaching the hardworked GQM clerks. -ed

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Ed-plausible I admit. Of the 5 listed on 13 Aug 40, no location is given and as for the 20% one, all it says is Jägerbeschuss, Fw Hermann Schirr (F) wounded. There is a 7/KG 2 loss also with 20% but with the location Calais (no crew listed). How sure are we that it was U5+FS?

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

hi

from interview of the german witness in 1978, owner of the pictures:

date : october 1940, a/c severely damaged : 270 shots impacts - force-landed on the beach - crew safe

from picture published in local newspaper : a/c D0 17 with KG2 nose bande

from Battle of Britain Then et Now :

24 october 1940 - Do17Z-2 N°2863 - 9/KG2 - severely damaged in fighter attack over England - returned to base : one killed : Gefr SCHINZ, two wounded : Fw BOHNHOFF and Gefr ELBERT.

Any information on this event?

W62

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

I have forgotten : Do 17z n° 2863 : aircraft a write-off

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Chris- Seems be the same plane on all four photos, unless there were more than one force landing on sandy beaches in the period..
Note combat damage on leading edge of the left horizontal stabilator, visible on both first picture (in this thread) and close up one, but right fin/rudder is missing from photo #1 in this thread. Attached are reverse´s of both them pictures saved from TOCH! June and/or July 2008 period. (I do not know who has copyright to them two, therfore uploaded all to external host)
http://i43.tinypic.com/2u596ye.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/e04aoz.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/k4azcn.jpg
Loss record for Do 17 Z-2 2863 confirmes 9 Staffel (U5+ T) so not conclusive the same in my mind.
Ref: BA-MA RL 2 III/1175 Page 1, report date 1940-10-25.

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

The 24 Oct 40 was was indeed 9/KG 2 and reputed to be Cambrai which is nowhere near the coast.....

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Agree with Ed,
% damaged were sometimes changed. It could have been 20% initially and salvagable but this might not have occurred. Both Bf109E-4 3579 and Bf110F-2 5252 had incorrect or changed % damaged subject to whether it was initially going to be recovered and might not have been in the end.

I agree if it is on the beach and eventually swamped I would expect it to be 100%.

Again, not every loss seems to have been recorded even with reports and eye witnesses but this is digressing.

regards

Mark

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Yes Chris,

But both Stab and II. used - during that period - Saint-Léger airfield which is much more closer from Berck and in direct line when coming back from England ... and more logical after receiving 270 shots.
But, of course I don't know much more except that is exactly what was collected ( numbers of rounds received by that plane) by the local historian when he met that "wart" in 1979.
Infortunately the article isn't on line anymore.

THIS, ONLY IF the "Saint Léger" quoted in Michael Holmes site is the good one since we can find five or six "Saint-Léger-something" but none Saint Léger alone!!!! That is writing "Saint Léger" is not relevant ... as usual.

Regards, Franck.

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

Attachment 8899

hi

Attached copy of the article about the witness given by the wart; He has said 270 rounds into the a/c.
Also berkc airfield was and still is, inland, just on the other side of the sand dune.
Regards
W62

Re: UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER
 

For once, it IS relevant...The "Saint Léger" in question is 14km SSE Arras downtown. Few remnants of the airfield save for a taxitrack section clearly visible. The arrangement of this airfield was rather unusual (a long crushed stone peripheral taxiway from which several "antennas"-like track sections led toward revetments (usually hay bales and netting).
There were a blister hangar and a large rectangular hangar for repairs, as well as a massive firing butt (now eradicated by the Thalys TGV line).

JV