RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

Does anyone have even a ballpark figure for the number of groundcrew who served in Bomber Command during the war.
We know BC aircrew numbered 125,000, of whom roughly 57,000 were killed, 9,000 wounded and 13,000 made prisoner or went missing.
But what of the groundcrew, of whom few were killed or wounded, of course.
A million, 750 thousand?
I would have thought Harris' biographer, Henry Probert, who spent 11 years heading the Air Historical Branch, or Webster & Frankland, the official historians, would have mentioned somewhere how many men Harris commanded, but nowhere can I find it covered.
Come to think of it, there was an establishment for each squadron, which can be multiplied by the number of squadrons to get a ballpark figure. Does anyone have the squadron groundcrew establishment, please.
Tony

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

Moved from other thread as this thread is more appropriate for my comment.

I am not at all surprised at the numbers of ground crew employed, as an Operational Bomber Command Station had between 1,800 to 2,200 staff of all levels, grades and trades.

Also around 1940 aircraft servicing hours were reduced from 60 hours to 30 hours on some aircraft types with minor servicing and checks after each op or flight.

Also some of the Command's aircraft had numerous modifications such as the Whitley (one of the most modified aircraft on the RAF fleet) and some were being extensively stripped to embody a structural tail beam modification (twice in WW2), structural wing bracing to the wing, de-icing equipment to wing, airscrew, windscreen, carburettor intake, cabin heating, pitot head and pipe changes, Exactor control joints and pipe mods, oil feed and engine coolant, fire extinguishing mods, wireless type changes and blind landing equipment etc., etc., etc., and repeated complete strips of the elevator assembly to embody several elevator assembly modifications. The official mods list for the Whitley V would have created an absolutely massive workload alone. Engine failure rates were high too, requiring engine rebuilds and modified engine blocks (requiring a complete engine strip).

Also you had the routine lighter crash and damage repair (although some aircraft went to Contractors or the Group's Maintenance Station), a heck of a lot was done at the RAF Station and these people have little credit (unsung) and their routine workload along with a continous issue of modifications sheets was absolutely massive.

Mark

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

Unfortunately I cannot remember where I filed the August 1940 RAF Driffield Station strength / establishment who had two Squadrons and some smaller Units, despite looking.

However, I have found a photocopy "Operations and Statistical Summary" dated 19/8/40 for No. 51 Squadron for Whitleys (with five crew) amongst my papers, it states:-

Posted Strength

OFFICERS
Officer Pilots 26
Crew 8
Non-flying 1
TOTAL 35

Attached 1
Detached 4 (included 1 non-flying)
Not Available 1
TOTAL 6

AIRMEN
Pilots 13
Crew 47
Non-flying 281
TOTAL 341

Attached Pilots 3
Attached crew 6
Attached non-flying 4
TOTAL 13

So if I can still add up, that is a total of 395 personnel for 51 Squadron.

Their SERVICEABLE Aircraft on charge were 13.
Unservicable Aircraft over 48 hours (Unit repairable) were 5.
Repairable aircraft at Depot or Contractors were 3.
Aircraft awaiting Write-off were 2.

Mark

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

Thank you, Mark.

From what you have kindly provided, we have three bases of calculating groundcrew and support crew, as follows;
1 using the ratio of groundcrew to aircraft (17:1) in 1940 for 50 Squadron
2 using the ratio of groundcrew to squadrons (301:1) in 1940 for 50 Sqdn
3 using your figure of 1,800 to 2,200 staff per station

June 1943: 1189 aircraft, in 64 squadrons, on 51 stations
April 1945: 2,709 aircraft, in 96 squadrons, on 62 stations.

1.
June 1943: 1,189 aircraft x 17 groundcrew = 20,213
April 1945: 2,709 aircraft x 17 groundcrew = 46,053

2.
June 1943: 64 squadrons x 301 = 19,264
April 1945: 96 squadrons x 301 = 28,896

3.
June 1943: 51 stations x 2,200 less 8,323 aircrew = 103,877
April 1945: 62 stations x 2,200 less 18,963 aircrew = 117,437

Total RAF manpower according to the Central Statistical Office:
June 1943: 967,000
April 1945: 970,000

Total civilian manpower devoted to the manufacture of equipment and supplies for the Ministry of Aircraft Production according to the CSO:
June 1943: 1,573,800
March 1945: 1,303,000

So here are tentative ballpark figures for 1944; about 1 million civilians were building and equipping bombers, 120,000 were doing the necessary on the airfields to keep them flying, 19,000 were flying and dying in them, and an unknown number were supplying them and repairing them when they were damaged beyond the capabilities of airfield maintenance.

Any comments?
Tony

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

BTW, anyone interested in Bomber Command should watch the DVD "Nightbombers', shot in the winter of 1943 in RAF Hemswell (20 miles north of Lincoln) in No.1 Group during a day and night when Berlin was bombed.
It is unbelievably interesting and well done, and in colour.
It costs about £8.50 from tax-minimising Amazon.
Tony

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

Tony

Looking at the actual figures for 51 Squadron:-
Flying personnel (Officer Aircrew and Airmen) was about 108
Non-flying personnel was about 287

The Squadron example had about 2.65 ground support and ground crew for every 1 individual flying crew member.

The RAF Station and Station HQ would have had its own separate permanent work and defence force.

Mark

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

I think you'll find that it was actually filmed in late 1944 and early 1945. No. 150 Squadron moved to Hemswell in November 1944. No. 170 Squadron in October 1944.

The FIDO scene was filmed at RAF Ludford Magna on 7 December 1944, using a tour-expired 101 Sqn crew and kite (you can see the dorsal ABC aerials on SR-M as she comes in to land)

Somewhere online there is a list of the aircrew who played the parts in the film. I seem to recall an airman named Chandler as Harris.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-cVw7Xb6Nk

Thanks to A/C Iliffe Cozens for filming what appears to be the only full colour footage of BC.

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

MoD website give this figure:

01-Jul-1944: The RAF reaches its peak strength of 1,185,833 personnel (1,011,427 men and 174,406 women).

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/rafhis...meline1944.cfm

BBC history website states "the RAF reached a total strength of 1,208,000 men and women, of whom 185,000 were aircrew. About 70,000 RAF personnel were killed."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peop...a6649248.shtml

Looking quickly at my pen and paper sources, I can't find anything to contradict or confirm these figures.

Maybe the BBSU or Statistical Digest of the War has something else.

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

More information, this from 'BRITAIN 1939 – 1945: THE ECONOMIC COST OF STRATEGIC BOMBING' by John Fahey

"At its peak in June/July of 1943, the Air Ministry and MAP had approximately 3,619,500 civilian workers under their direct or indirect control182. This figure represents 20.7 percent of the total civil work force available at the time; or over one in every five people." p. 175.

There is a whole chapter on BC manpower. I'll get back to you shortly ;)

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

According to Fahey's thesis: "the strength of Bomber Command never rose to 250,000 men and women and that 125,000 men served as aircrew within the Command during World War II". (p. 407)

He estimates that Bomber Command was provided with 125,000 aircrew and 300,000 ground crew during the war, at a cost of £646.87 million. Bomber Command comprised about 12.5% of the RAF's strength during the war (p.446-448)

From p. 408 (emphasis mine):

"In July 1943, the official establishment of Bomber Command was 147,923 positions of which Bomber Command claimed only 91,564 (61.9%) were filled. The Air Ministry rebutted these claims by pointing out that 139,195 of the 147,923 positions were filled and that the percentage shortfall was only 5.9%.

In mid 1944, the Director General of Manpower noted that Bomber Command had an establishment of 143,171 positions of which 135,607 personnel were posted in the Command. The establishment figures clearly show that between July 1943 and July 1944 the size of Bomber Command fell by 3.22%, whilst the size of the RAF increased by 2.14 percent, from 1,148,600 to 1,173,200 over the same period....

The figures also show that between 1943 and 1944 Bomber Command contained an average of 12.53 percent of the RAF’s total manpower."

On aircrew/groundcrew numbers:

"Between July 1943 and July 1944, when the average strength of Bomber Command was 147,923, the number of aircrew was probably around nine percent, or 13,904". (p. 438)

The majority of ground crew were British. "Australia, Canada and New Zealand were unable to provide large numbers of personnel for ground crew. These nations did not possess large-scale aircraft industries and they had a small pool of qualified manpower." (p. 437).

On casulaties (p. 410):

"The casualty figure for Bomber Command is estimated by Richard Overy as being 79,172, a few more than the 79,147 reported by Harris in his official report"

"Aircrew losses were disproportionately large within Bomber Command with 61.45 percent (76,817) of the 125,000 aircrew becoming casualties and 44.45 percent (55,573) being killed" (p. 411)

Ground crew casualties from Fahey - quoting Hiarris' 'Dispatches':

"Between 3rd September 1939 and 8th May 1945, 1,870 men and women died serving in Bomber Command, almost one for every day of the war. A further 759 ground crew were seriously wounded or injured and 78 were listed as missing or prisoners of war before being returned safe". (p. 439)

Fahey has an interesting graphic on p. 416, showing that nearly 5 million volunteered as ground crew in the second half of 1940 and 5.5 million volunteered as ground crew in the first half of 1941.

According to Fahey "80 percent of all volunteers for service wanted to be ground crew and only 17 percent expressed a clear preference for aircrew". (p. 416)

WAAF strength peaked in the first half of 1943, at a little over 3.6 million (p. 417)


**************
Summing up:

Peak Bomber Command strength: about 130-145,000 in the last 2 1/2 years of the war
Aircrew: Around 9% of strength
Ground crew: About 115-130,000 at any one time in the last 2 1/2 years of the war

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

Thanks, SimonE.
The difference between your 14,000 BC aircrew and my 19,000 probably reflects the number in training, mostly in Canada, and not yet part of BC.

And thanks, alieneyes1 for providing the correct date for Nightbombers as being end 1944. The crews were far more relaxed than they would have been a year earlier, since the Luftwaffe had by then been destroyed. But even with no aerial opposition, as has been pointed out on another thread, BC never went back to Berlin with the heavies. Its defeat in 1943 had acted as effective aversion therapy. I wonder then why the chosen subject of Nightbombers was Berlin rather than an actual target. It's disappointing to find the film is not a real but still a fictional depiction reminiscent of the downright untruthful "Target For Tonight". The RAF has always had problems telling the truth even to itself in an internal film for its eyes only.
Tony

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

Re: 'Nightbombers' - from memory, the briefing segment was filmed in early March 1945 (source: Jones, W. E. 'BOMBER INTELLIGENCE - 103, 150, 166, 170 Squadrons Operations and Techniques '42 - '45': an autobiography by the Intelligence Officer who appears in the film), while the footage of Lancasters shown over the target with flares going down was filmed in B&W over Pforzheim on 23-24 February 1945, being colourised for the Nightbombers movie.

'Nightbombers' was just a movie to document the activities of Bomber Command in colour, no more and no less, and as to the Luftwaffe having been "destroyed," I will simply point out that a couple of weeks before the briefing was filmed, Bomber Command, for example, lost 45 aircraft one night when the Luftwaffe sortied 170 night fighters and claimed 65 bombers shot down, while a few nights after the briefing was filmed Bomber Command would lose another 49 aircraft, with 60 German night fighters being sortied, and then two nights after that another 40 aircraft were lost, with 121 German night fighters being sortied.

With respect, please check facts before issuing generalised statements.


Cheers

Rod

Re: RAF groundcrew numbers.
 

You object to my 'generalised statements' made without checking the facts.
Here are three 'generalised statements' taken randomly from Webster & Frankland, which can surely truthfully be said to imply that the Luftwaffe was destroyed towards the end of 1944;
1. "Thus in the last and utterly crushing Battle of the Ruhr between the beginning of October and the end of December 1944, some 14,254 sorties were despatched, 60,830 tons of bombs were dropped and only 136 bombers failed to return. This was a missing rate of less than one per cent of the despatched sorties". VolIII, page 184.
2. "in February and March it was comparatively easy to pursue the offensive to its logical conclusion, for there was hardly any resistance by the Luftwaffe." Page 235.
3. "Thus, the Allied air fleets, except on rare occasions, had almost complete air ascendency both by day and night...". page 238.

As for Nightbombers, the DVD blurb states this: "In the winter of 1943-44 RAF Bomber Command was sending massive raids almost every night into the heart of Germany. This is the story of one of them, an attack on Berlin, probably the most heavily defended target of them all and one which made terrible demands on the courage of the aircrew....................One must imagine that they were terrified much of the time, but there is very little signs of doubt or anxiety on the brave faces in Iliffe Cozen's film. Although certain scenes had to be re-created for technical reasons, the raid is a real one and there are no actors".
Your information reveals that this blurb is not true, because the film was shot in March 1945, By then, according to Webster & Frankland, the Luftwaffe was putting up "hardly any resistance", so there was no longer any reason why the crews should have been "terrified much of the time".

Nightbombers is unique. It was not filmed for public release, but used internally for training. As such I would have thought it would need to be accurate. I therefore have difficulty understanding your statement that "Nightbombers was just a movie to document the activities of Bomber Command in colour, no more, no less". Are you saying accuracy was unimportant? I would appreciate a fuller explanation of your meaning.

Thank you for the reference to the autobiography
Tony