Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hello,

Having completed our initial massive revision to the Luftwaffe Loss DB, the EoE Working Group is systematically undertaking a similar complete revision of all British losses/damages/casualties in the European war theater from 09.39 through 12.40. Our team has just completed dozens of revisions to 16 August 1940, and I noted the following:

"PRU, Heston

Spitfire I (PR) Type C N3116. Failed to return from photo-reconnaissance sortie over the Ruhr. Pilot Officer Alexander Boyd Corbett captured. Aircraft a write-off."


Does anyone have any information that would specify more precisely where this a/c crashed, and, if different, where the pilot was captured, info on cause of the loss, or photos of the downed a/c or the captured pilot?


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Regards,


Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hi Larry,

Can not help with the location but Corbett's loss occurred on 15 Aug 40. The ORB (F.540) incorrectly states 16 Aug 40.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Andy,

Thanx. I've called Peter Cornwell's attention to your comments, and I'm sure that he will investigate this.

Regards,

Larry

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hello Andy and Larry

My interest is Bomber Command night of 14/15th August 1940 and for some strange reason some B C Loss Card dates are wrong. However, I have found the ORB to be correct. Querying my findings with the AHB, they say that two Loss Cards [swapped to other nights] are non-standard, two other BC Loss Cards are incorrect and confirm the ORBs pages I have, record the correct night with the date of the casualty loss, or when the crew actually went down in the aircraft, to be became POW shortly afterward and not dates as recorded in books and publications.

There are also two Bomber Command aircraft MSI (Movement Serial Indicators) in intelligence forms, for which the Squadron / Station / Group / Command ORBs, Orders, Raid Forms, offer no aircraft or crew.

Hence my question - What record are you (or others) using to say the PRU aircraft Loss date (or when the pilot became POW) in the ORB is wrong please? I presume it is the form completed when the POW returned?

Mark

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hello,

Our EoE research team of British losses is beginning to delve further into this one. I'm hoping that their efforts and those of anyone else on the TOCH board can help us resolve this.

The latest direct message I received:

"The PRU ORB F.540 in AIR 29/413, which I have, does indeed record the 16th. I presume the 15th comes from the F.78 for N3116 which is also the date given in the 'AEROMILITARIA' Spitfire series (Cat. E on the 15th and SOC later).

There is a problem with the PRU F.541 - and from memory with one or two other units. The PRU F.541 records in detail all SUCCESSFUL missions, in other words only those flights which returned to base. No mention of any lost aircraft or crews.

The PRU at this time was operating from at least three bases. We need to view the ORB for Heston airfield, from which base Corbett departed on his last flight. Also the Coastal Command ORB/Appendices and/or the 16 Group ORB/Appendices. A POW questionnaire would be useful although RossMcNeill notes he did not become a POW until the 19th. Definitely more work needed.

Any matching Luftwaffe claim ?"

Can anyone help our EoE team clear up any of these questions, or add anything to this discussion?

I've looked this one up in the Weiss Manuscript for 16 August, to see if there is any resolution on the German side of this story, but found nothing that we don't already know.

"At Heston a Spitfire of the PRU took off to carry out a photo reconnaissance of the Ruhr industrial area in Germany. The Spitfire did not return and it is most likely that it became embroiled in the air combats of that day and it may be one of those claims which were submitted without a specification of the location.
The pilot survived and became POW.

PRU Spitfire PR/IIIc “N 3116” P/O Corbett PoW
Aircraft missing."

Further research from British sources ought to be able to establish exactly the date and time that this a/c departed from Heston. Once we've accurately established that, we should be able to review German claims to see if there is any fighter interception or AA activity that relates along the expected flight route. Until we definitively establish the date for this action, there wouldn't be much use looking for German claims. Can anyone help who has a copy of the PoW questionnaire for Corbett? Getting his account of what happened could help a lot.

At the same time, those with collections that contain photos of PRU Spitfires crashed in Germany or France during the summer of 1940 might be able to turn up something.

Your further assistance is appreciated. We should be able to get the story on this one significantly further clarified.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hi Larry and Mark,

I have been unable to find any corresponding Luftwaffe fighter claim for Cortbett's loss on the 15th.

The date of the 15th comes from the Form Orange and Form Mauve.

The Form Orange gives the objective as Ruhr District M25. I believe M25 was the Dortmund-Ems Canal Aqueduct.

I too would be interested in a copy of Corbett's POW questionnaire or any photos related to his loss.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Andy,

It looks like the next step here is to get a copy of the PoW Questionnaire. Who can help with that ?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hello Larry,
If you can wait till next week I can do it then. Maybe someone can do it sooner, if so, please post so as not to duplicate work. Have you found the file ref?

Regards,
Bruce

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hello Andy and Larry

Andy's reference to M.25 is interesting as one of the Bomber Command Executive Orders for Operations Night 14/15th August 1940 to RAF Scampton states:-
1 A/c will operate alone and is detailed to carry out recco. and take photographs of M.25.

However, the intelligence indicates that M25 could not be located.

When Bomber Command could not get the photographs, further instructions were usually issued for a photo recconnaisance flight.

Mark

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hello Andy, Mark and Dennis,

Appreciate all of your efforts to help out on this one. Before I send Dennis off on a hunt for this PoW info, does anyone out there already have a copy of thePoW questionnaire for Pilot Officer Alexander Boyd Corbett in hand? If not, does anyone know the file number where this can be found at the NA? One of the members of our EoE research team has some general file numbers for these, but we don't know in what specific file Corbett's report would be found.

Who can help, or at least guide the search for this info?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Just had a quick look through the NA Catalogue and the file reference looks like WO 344/73/1

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hello,

As I suspected, Peter Cornwell has reviewed the WO344/1-410 file at the NA(PRO), as a part of his research for his massive volume "The Battle of France Then and Now."

His comments: “I inspected the WO344/1-410 file during research for BoFrT&N. 'Liberated (British) PoW Questionnaires' contains two-page pro-formas briefly describing the circumstances of the individuals capture and were completed on their repatriation. The file includes completed questionnaires by Army/Navy/Air Force personnel and is organized by alpha surname throughout so if CORBETT completed one at least it should be easy to find. It is NOT a complete record as not every returnee completed one. Also, in my experience, very little additional relevant information was gleaned from these documents but what did emerge has already been incorporated into my RAF loss lists."

However, Peter does suggest that a quick check under Corbett's name might be worth doing to see if anything was missed or overlooked. It may well be that either Corbett never completed a questionnaire, or there was nothing useful in it.

Has anyone out there done any research on the PRU Spitfire pilots and operations during 1940, which might have turned up further details on this loss? If so, someone may already have checked out this man's PoW Questionnaire if such exists, and even made a copy of it.

Have any books been published which feature PRU operations in general during 1939-40, that might help educate me on the subject, and perhaps provide further info on other PRU pilot and a/c losses?

I can't spend a lot of time chasing a dead end, but also don't want to assume that there is nothing further to be learned about what happened to PO Corbett.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

PDU / PRU ORB 1940 is WITH GOVERNMENT DEPT per TNA
 

Access into The National Archives, Kew, computer yesterday regarding AIR 29/413 Photographic Development Unit (PDU), later 1 Photographic Reconnaissance Unit (PRU) ... March 1939 to December 1940 was stating on 11th June 2013 - "WITH GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT".

If visiting TNA to see the ORB, you will need to telephone TNA, Kew beforehand and call it, or request it back first, stating that you wish to see the ORB.

I have had this happen with other files and if you give your contact details, TNA will usually contact you when they have the document back for viewing, but will request it back for you.

Therefore, I could not get a photograph, but would like a copy or photograph of the page/s covering 14th to 16th August 1940 please?

Mark

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hi Larry, your PM inbox is full.
Regards,
Bruce

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Bruce,

Please respond directly to the email address attached to my message to you. My PM box is nearly always full.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Mark,

I live in the USA so a visit to the NA (PRO) is not feasible at present, nor would I have the time to do so for a limited search for one person's details. The EoE covers the entire air war 1939-40 on all sides in all countries, and I have to stay focused on the acquisition of major collections of information during my limited trips to the UK and Europe. In certain circumstances, if there is a local person who can help, I have to work through them.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coodinator

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Hello Larry

I had realised that you were on the other side of the pond.

But I seem to recall that someone had suggested looking at some docs for you, so I posted the notice that the ORB was with a Government Dept for the benefit of others.

There is also a personnel war establishment file for PDU Heston in AIR 2/3096, but whether this records the dates of lost crew is unknown. It was ordered, but returned along with 5 other files unseen, due to being kicked out at closing time.

Mark

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Mark,

Martin Gleeson, who has given a tremendous amount of help to Peter Cornwell on the EoE British loss lists for 1939-40, informs me that he has digitized copy of the PRU ORB for 1940 (AIR 29/413). That doesn't further advance what we already know.

Short of taking another look at the PoW Questionnaire for P.O. Alexander Corbett, and perhaps at the file you mentioned, I'm not sure where we can go from here. I was hoping that Corbett's story might already have been told in the existing post-war literature, but this appears not to be the case.

Perhaps some researcher tracked Corbett down post-war and has an account of his experiences? Is he maybe even still alive?

Anybody else got any ideas on where to go with this? We're going to a huge amount of effort and expense to try and take the story of the 39-40 airwar as far as we can take it, especially casualty information, and this one just kind of disappears into a black hole. We're not even sure of the exact date of his loss.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Thanks Larry

This sounds like the chap:-

"CORBETT Alexander Boyd (1916-2005)
Royal Air Force / Royal Canadian Air Force World War 2 Prisoner of War Long-time employee of the Ford Motor Company of Canada. At age 88 years, died on March 7, 2005 at the Nanaimo Regional General Hospital ... Interment in Merrickville, Ontario at a later date."

Toronto Globe and Mail? Published 12 March 2005, his wife and family were all listed. Surely the Archives Canada / Veterans Affairs Canada / Veterans Association Canada may be able to assist with an official history and even pre RCAF details?

There is supposed to be another Obituary on Ancestry "Daily Times", quite what the paper says and whether it gives a date and how accurate it might be, I have no idea? I am not a subscriber.

I traced the family of a Canadian Pilot (my Grandfather's previous Captain), by getting information from the local Cemetery authority, who gave me the Undertaker / Funeral Director, I wrote by post to the Canadian Funeral Home and the Undertaker was absolutely brilliant and gave me several addresses to try. The late Captain's daughter sent me some lovely A3 colour photocopies of his ORB by post.

Mark

Re: Need loction of PRU pilot loss & capture on 16 August 1940
 

Mark

This is an excellent lead. This is certainly the pilot whose story we are seeking. Now we just have to find someone, preferably in Canada, who has the time to follow up on this. I'll bet that someone from his survivors/descendants there has the information that we're looking for.

Anybody out there with the opportunity and inclination to follow up on Mark's information?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator