Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Has somebody ever heard of H.J.Marseille crashing (belly landing) in France with a 109, somewhere in summer 1940 ?

It allegedly took place in Vendée near Chantonnay, which is near the Atlantic coast.

Any confirmation of this crash ?

Thanks for your advice.

GC

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

I can only think of while returning from a bomber-escort mission on 23 September 1940, his engine failed after combat damage sustained over Dover, he tried to radio his position but was forced to bail out over the sea.

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Salut Gilles,

1/ This thread: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=21555
2/ Where did you find this belly landing in Chantonnay? Ferry Flight? Erg. Unit? Location seems strange.

Regards, Franck.

PS: No news of our friend?

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

merci to both of you

en effet, I shall remind him.

All best to you

Gilles

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

I forgot to answer your question as to why I asked this:

local witnesses between Chantonnay and Pouzeauge said they saw an airplane belly land in summer 1940, that they rescued the pilot who was unhurt,

after that, they allegedly recognized H.J.Marseille in "Adler" in which he was pictured.

I have a slight doubt, but that is why I asked the question.

all best

Gilles

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Gilles: This surely was a very very unreliable source??!! He wouldn't have featured in Adler until a year later and in any case, what would a non-aviator or for that matter non-Luftwaffe member know?

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Salut le Toulousain,

Marseille was a member of 1.(J)/LG 2 at that time, a unit that operated from Calais-Marck, out of reach of Vendée however strong the wind was.
He was shot down three times in September 1940 but always in the Calais area. He said he was treated each time by the same surgeon who became suspicious about his mental health.

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

This is crystal clear, guys, again merci à everybody.

GC

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Interesting; these little factoids were not mentioned in his 'Star of Africa' bio; sure there was the usual commentary from his commanding officers in France who found him 'rather eccentric & lacking in discipline' but I never heard anybody mentioning he might be 'whacked'...got any details/anecdotes to share?

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Hello,

Back in the 1960s there was a booklet published by, IIRC, Heinz Nowarra, that had a front view of a belly landed 109E that was captioned as one of Marseille's BoB FL. It might have been a publication called "Star of Africa." I'll have to look for my copy of this and I'll post it if I can locate it. I seem to remember seeing a couple of views of this same a/c in Jochen Prien's unidentified 109 file as well. I have no proof that this was really one of Marseille's FL, but that's what Nowarra's caption said. JFV Volume 4/II (Battle of Britain period), by Prien et.al. does not have that photo in it for coverage of I.(J)./LG2 so it seems that Dr. Prien's team must have had some skepticism as to the identity of this FL 109. However, there is a photo of Marseille standing by the nose of his a/c in that volume. No markings really visible.

I would very much like to document one of Marseille's a/c from his BoB period, but to my knowledge nothing definitive has ever come to light. I think I also once exchanged emails a few years ago with Dr. Jim Kitchens, who published a book on Marseille's 109s, and his comment was that no verifiable photos of M's a/c from the BoB had ever surfaced to his knowledge.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Hi Larry, I have a copy of the booklet you mention above and I can agree there is a photograph of this particular aircraft.

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Welcome tmolitor!

.... Hemmm, can you share a scan please?

Regards, Franck.

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Hello,

Here are the two photos that I know of relating to the FL a/c at "Calais-Marck" with a note that they show an a/c of "3.(J)/LG2" flown by "Marseille." I presume that these photos were captioned from information provided by Heinz Nowarra, and come to us via the Peter Petrick and Jochen Prien Collections. I seriously question this identification as one of Marseille's crashes because his first of three with this unit was on 2 Sept 1940, when he crash-landed a "White 14" from 1.(J)/LG2 at Calais-Marck. By this time the rudder should have been painted white or yellow, or at least tipped in white or yellow. Instead it is covered by a heavy two-tone mottle of gray and green. No a/c code is visible due to the angles. Obviously, this was at or immediately after harvest time on the Pas-de-Calais. Based upon the rudder alone, it seems to me that this would more likely be late-July-early August, before the white or yellow tactical markings were applied on the rudder. If this was a 3 Staffel a/c, it wasn't likely to be Marseille, who was with 1 Staffel.

What I'm hoping by posting these is that someone will recognize other views of this a/c that may have appeared on eBay, or in other sources, that provide further identification of the a/c, perhaps even displaying a unit insignia. The grain shocks may help correlate these with other views of the crash-landing.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-X9N...-X9Npw7B-M.jpg
http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-gbd...-gbd7hnm-M.jpg

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

It was published in a very ancient article in a long forgotten US magazine of the 70s written by a Canadian who had a French name (can't remember neither his name nor the publication's title).
Marseille did not say he could have been "whacked", rather than the surgeon seemed to wonder whether HJ had crashed on purpose three times at the same place (or nearly so).
This bio was remarkably detailed with many anecdotes, such as when he prevented the intendant at Derna, who had just given his pay, to put the official stamp on the box reserved to decorations. The guy looked at him straight in the eyes and told him: because you think you will get the Ritterkreuz one day? Marseille would have answered: Of course, I will! The story goes that the intendant replied: Tell me your name, young man, so that I can remember it the day it will happen (it happens?).
And many others regarding his relationships with his Staffelkapitän and his Gruppenkommandeur, which were tense on many occasions.

If I can recall the author's name, I'll post it.

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Hi Everyone,

Larry has the same picture I have from my booklet. If I have a better quality picture I'll scan it and send it on to everyone. This may take a few days. Im currently away on Holiday.

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Actually, the senior staff doctor, asked him when the next time he was planning to show up so that he could receive him properly.

Perhaps he crashed landed 3 times at Cap Griz Nez was because its was the closest point to France from Dover.

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Regarding the lack of I.D. colors, the yellow wingtips and wedge on the top part of the rudders seems to have been introduced in early August. By the time I./LG2 was based in Holland so they probably didn't use them. I belive they did use the white wingtips and rudder markings that started to appear on crashed 109's in Britain on September 2, 1940. So if the crash in the photos was in France it seems likely to be around the last week of August as I./LG2 relocated from Holland to Calais-Marck on August 22 and ought to have had the white wingtips and rudder painted on come September.

This assuming the photo IS from France and really showing an LG2 aircraft...

Cheers / Anders

Re: Any confirmation of H.J. Marseille crash in France in summer 1940 ?
 

Anecdotes: just recalled the author's name: a Lavigne (don't have his first name).