Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Hello,

who got informations about the Bf 109 E with the WNr. 1259 in his database? Possible build as E-3 at Erla, that what I know.

Thanks...

David

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

reported as a E-4 in a crashlanding near Calais November 10th 1940 with 5./JG 53 (20%), next time reported as a E-7, emergency landing due to engine failure near Cahela/Lybia, 3./JG 27, Ofhr. Marseille unhurt, plane damaged 80%, date was April 20th 1941
source GQM files

regards
khorat

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Thanks khorat,
that is the picture with the plane. It got the "1259" below the canopy. Possible the WNr.
Its from an old Ebay auction (thats why it is "damaged" with the black bars :-(). The informations are "El Alamein, 1942". If it is the same plane, it must be repaired again after the 80% damage. The question is: Is it an recon unit? Is the plane modified as Bf 109 E-9?

http://s14.directupload.net/images/130622/kpotkw6s.jpg

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Hi,
on 14-May-43 it was with JGr. West and damaged 60% at Pauillac as E-7, engine trouble. No info on a possible E-9.

Norbert

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

My guess for a E-9 comes also from this Bf 109 E "black 13"... it got the same marking style. And the plane got no wing weapons.
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7515

Is the marking style specific for a recon unit?

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

W.Nr.1259 Bf109E-3 GK+AK Erla

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Bf109E-9 released only 2 pieces.
One

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Thanks! Additional gives Stammkennzeichen.de for that SKZ:
"E-Stelle Rechlin, Januar 1940"

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Hi Guys,
for F6+ I have AG.(F)122 and AGr.23 ... But the emblem I see on photo sent by Steinhoff doesn't match pretty well?

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

2.(H)/14 can't see other possibility.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Oh yes. The style matches with that Emils...

http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=632
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=108

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Yep 2.(H)14, I have 6 other desert emils with this style marking and each has it's WNr under the cockpit (all the others are illegible). Also several Bf-109F's.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Here's what the records say. No E-9. Seems a short time for an 80% to come back into service. Maybe a mis-ID?

Bf109E-7, 1259, MARSEILLE, Ofhr. Hans-Joachim I./ 3.//JG 27, gelbe13 + (?),
20-Apr-41, Notlandung due to engine damage., X.Fl.Korps/Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, V, p.374; Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer, Stab & I./JG 27, p.540; Scutts, Bf 109 Aces of NA & the Med, p.28
bei Cahela, 80%


Bf 109E-7, 1259, n.n., JGr.West,14-May-43, Notlandung due to engine trouble., Lfl.3/, FR, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #10)-Vol.17, Pauillac, 60%

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

What do you mean John? Between when and when? Can you detail your thoughts please?

Regards, Franck.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Franck,

what I mean is that for an 80% damaged airframe, I am surprised it was not written off. But if that damage estimate is correct, then there must have been extensive damage to the airframe, not just landing gear etc. I would guess that a major rebuild might have been in order, not just repairs by a depot, some where. It was in the second loss in a training unit, which means it was flying in less than two years. so that time frame seems a short time for such extensive repairs, but since I know little about wartime German aircraft repair proceedures, perhaps I am wrong.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

John,

me either ... But less than two years left time enough I think.
Talking about short time frame I thought you're refering about the time left between Marseille's accident and that David's picture we can suppose taken in 1942.

Even though we have "seen" shorter times with same damage elsewhere ...

We can suppose she got the WNr. Under canopy when in major repair shop.

Regards, Franck.

PS: But whatever, there is something wrong in that 80%.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

David

How fixed is the WNr 1259? It is not possible to verify on the photo you have sent. Do you have a better copy?

It seems awkward to say the least to have the aircraft damaged 80% with JG 27 and be back in service with 2.(H)./14 in 1942. 80% damage was basically only small spare parts use only. Possibly the 80% is faulty....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Salut Stig,

This photo came exactly as David did put it in thread; don't expect more. (Good to notice that it's very rare David keeping one photo with such "antifuchs")

As for 80%:
I think this is John problem - mine and yours too - especialy in 1941/1942. It was just good for spare parts.
But, as this photo do suggest, the damage were big enough to send the craft in major repair shop (hence the WNr. under canopy).

I really think - until getting one accident's picture - it's not very important to focus on this 80%.

The main concern is: An E-7? An E-9? An E-9 definitely not. MG tube is clearly visible pointing off left wing.
1259 wasn't an E-1/E-8/E-9. But an E-3/E-7 though it is displaying (in 1942) an early style canopy and an uncomplete head armor rest.

That's all - I think - we can say about it.
Last, as usual I can, I'm able to, "speculate" a little bit more about it!! :D

Cheers, Franck.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

What a long story for a misread number!

The correct Werknummer of this Bf 109E-7trop is 1299, it was lost as black “11” by 4.(H)/12 on 6.Jun.42 when Lt. Fritz Hülle (POW) made a forced landing after being damaged by AA near Acroma.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Its possible that the first photo was in higher resolution and I have reduced it to 800 pixels.
I have check my files, but I don't was able to find it. My upload to my website was on the 22. Nov 2004. And I have found other photos of this plane... damn small... but it looks like Merlins guess of WNr. 1299 can be correct. And the other informations matches perfectly, or?

But look...

Edit: But, the left photo show an other 109, its the later canopy. But also missing wing guns...

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

1299!!

ah ah ah ah!...

OK! 4.(H)/12 or 2.(H)/14 ???

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Hi Guys,

By the way, there is another one!
enjoy it.

Regards, Franck.

PS: Sorry David, 4.(H)/12! In 1942, June, 2.(H)/14 was in Germany.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

:)
So Wnr 1299 it is....
Fits a lot better!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Hi Stig,

Just for the moment...

I'm surprised 2.(H)/14 and 4.(H)/12 had same kind of markings, especially with Bf 109 Es.
Any comments about that situation?

However if we consider Michael Holm correct (How much correct?) both units didn't cross in North Africa except from 11/1942 in Tunisia.

....

Cheers, Franck.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Is your pilot name "Hülle" sure?

I got answer from Harald Vogt, he tell me:
"W.Nr. 1299: E-3 am 03.09.41 Reparatur und Umbau zur E-7 in Erding. 06.06.42 als E-7 bei der 4.(H)/12 verloren gegangen und zu 100% abgeschrieben, Lt Fritz Müller wurde verwundet."

Possible also a reading error like the WNr. :-)

@Franck, thanks for the next picture of that plane! It's always bad with that damn low resolution... :-(

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Y're welcome David.

The KRACKER list gives Hülle without detail about the Bf 109 E. Day's loss is the same.
Nothing about a Frizt Müller in 4.(H)/12, but means nothing except it's not in the list!!

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

According to NVM Fritz Hülle is correct.

Matti

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

I wouldn´t give a lot on the correct writing of a name even in those official lists.
A bad carbon copy of a typed Verlustmeldung (3rd copy or more ) may let you read a "M" instead of an "H". And reading "Mülle" may let the reader think of the most common German name "Müller" with an obviously forgotten letter.
Frequently occurring mistakes especially when you´re working with names in a foreign language...

Regards

Roland

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Right Roland. If you are looking at the GQM Verlustmeldung dated 16.6.1942, item 102, you can quite easily read the name as Müller. Also, in Berichtigungen on page 1 of Verlustmeldung dated 7.7.1942 the first letter of the name is blurred, although the end is clearly ...lle.

Matti

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Has to that unit. 4.(H)/12 also had 109Es in Africa, but carried white codes.

Bf 109E-7, , n.n., , , 2.(H), 14, , , , , 21-Mar-42, Bruchlandung due to technical failure., , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #5)-Vol.8, , nicht gemeldet, 30%, F, , ,
Bf 109E, 1259, n.n., , , 2.(H), 14, schwarze, + 11, GK+EK, , , Port side overall photo'd in North Africa (said El Alamein, Egypt) following tropicalization and photo reconnaissance conversion (said a Bf109E-9). Three figures working underneath at camera port., Possibly WNr. 1269., Afrika, www.messerschmitt-bf109.de,“Bf 109E-9”, Photo No. 4061 (Privat), , , -, F, , , Erla Werke
Bf 109E-7/trop, 1404, n.n., , , 2.(H), 14, , , , , 06-Feb-42, Technical failure., , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.9, , Arco Philaenorum, 50%, H, , ,
Bf 109E, 1579, ./., , , 2.(H), 14, , , , , 16-Dec-41, Destroyed by own forces due to shift in front., , Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.H./Eins.Mittelmeer-Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol.7, , Martuba, 100%, F, , ,
Bf 109E-7, 1955, n.n., , , 2.(H), 14, , , , , 13-Mar-42, Bruchlandung due to pilot error., , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #5)-Vol.8, , Fl.Pl. Martuba, 70%, H, , ,
Bf 109E-7, 2011, n.n., , , 2.(H), 14, , , , , 14-Nov-42, Crashed while taxiing., , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12, , Trapani, 65%, H, , ,
Bf 109E-7, 3589, ./., , , 2.(H), 14, , , , , 19-Mar-42, Bombenwurf., , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #5)-Vol.8, , Fl.Pl. Martuba, 100%, F, , ,
Bf 109E-7, 4158, n.n., , , 2.(H), 14, , , BI+WE, , 14-Nov-42, Crashed while taxiing. Found by Brits on 13-Jul-43. Battle damaged., , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.12; Prien, JG 77, III, p.1839, Menke, Trapani-Platz Milo, 65%, H, , ,
Bf 109E-7, 5278, Schöndarth, Ofw. Henry, , , 2.(H), 14, , , , , 14-Mar-42, MIA due to enemy fighters., , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #5)-Vol.8, , (Tobruk), 100%, F, , ,
Bf 109F, 5445, Metz, Ltn. Wilhelm, , , 2.(H), 14, schwarzes, 5 +, , , 01-Mar-43, Reported lost due to enemy fighter. F returned., , Lfl.2/Tunisien, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.15; Prien/Rodeike, Bf 109F, G & K, p.23 photo, , bei Gaffour (Gfour el Aroussa), 100%, F, , ,
Bf 109E, 6053, ./., , , 2.(H), 14, , , , , 20-Dec-41, Destroyed by own forces due to shift in front., , Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.H./Eins.Mittelmeer-Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol.7, , Benina, 100%, F, , ,
Bf 109E-7, 6109, n.n., , , 2.(H), 14, , , , , 22-Feb-42, Crashed due to enemy fire., , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #5)-Vol.8, , bei El Mechilli, 100%, F, , ,

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the list.

Seems the explanation I was looking for (See my post #24).
I do prefer like that.

2.(H)/14 plane left behind and used by 4.(H)/12 ? (I know, I like to speculate but I'll never write it! It's just between you and me)

Anyway:
4.(H)/12 used white codes ... Hmm ... not on white band then :D.

Cheers, Franck.

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Hello Jim

In post 6 Wnr.1259 was given GK+AK and in your list GK+EK

Typo ?

Kind Regards

Peter van Gogh

Re: Informations about Bf 109 E WNr.1259 ?
 

Typo. Thanks for pointing that out. jlp