Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

I am trying to reconstruct the batches of Bf 109B-1 aircraft delivered on RLM contracts. According to Lieferplan (Production Plan) No. 8 from July 1, 1938, a total of 363 Bf 109B-1 were produced. Messerschmitt delivered 76, Erla 175 and Fieseler 90. This should be well established facts. However, when comparing my Werkenumber batches with available references, this does not correspond. My data is based on original documents from Bundesarchiv Freiburg giving details on aircraft at various repair facilities up to July 1940. My finding are as follows:
W.Nr. 286 - 416 (28 aircraft identified) W.Nr. 419 is the first in a series of Bf 109D-1 aircraft.

W.Nr. 540 - 617 (12 aircraft identified) W.Nr. 619 is the first in a series of Bf 109D-1 aircraft.

W.Nr. 1013 - 1063 (15 aircraft identified). W.Nr. 1075 is the first in a series of Bf 109E aircraft.

W.Nr. 1712 - 1718 (4 aircraft identified). W.Nr. 1723 is the first in a series of Bf 109C aircraft.

W.Nr. 3001 - 3083 (32 aircraft identified). W.Nr. 3093 is the first in a series of Bf 109D-1.
Can anyone please help me to establish the correct sequences of the Bf 109B-1 production batches.

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

Hello,

The book Messerschmitt Bf 109 Recognition Manual by Marco Fernandez-Sommerau gives 344 Bf 108Bs in the following ranges.

301-475, 1001-1079, 3001-3090

Regards
Frithjof

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

Hey Seaplanes

In my own list I have found the following Bf 109 B:

272 - 412 build by Erla-Leipzig, 37 (first "D" was 415)
540 - 617 build by Erla-Leipzig, 37
1013 - 1070 build by BFW-Augbsurg, 37
1705 - 1719 build by BFW-Augsburg, 37 (the first "C" is possibility 1720 ?)
3000 - 3089 build by Fieseler-Kassel, 37

JoMe

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

I regret to say that I made a terrible mistake in my first påosting. The total number of Bf 109B to be produced is NOT 363, but 341. By mistake I included the 22 Bf 109A aircraft in the total.

So to the various production batches:
90 Bf 109B built by Fieseler: W.Nos. 3001 - 3090 or 3000 - 3089.

76 Bf 109B built by BFW: W.Nos. 1013 - 1070 = 58 aircraft
W.Nos 1705 - 1719 = 15 aircraft
This give only 73 aircrat. I believe that the
first batch should be 1011 - 1070, then we
get a total of 76 planes.
175 Bf 109B built by Erla: W.Nos. 272 - 412 or 416 and 540 - 617.
Tese figures give a total far too high.

Can somebody give well documented comments to these figures.

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

There were only 30 a/c in the 540-617 block and only 9 in the 1701-1719 block

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

To add my own data based on "schulen" losses

It seems that

295 to 312 are B
348 to 412 B
416 to 531 D
540 to 613 B
619 to 665 D
669 to 991 E
998 to 1063 B
1070 to 1671 E
1676 to 1717 B
1719 to 17.. D
1720 to 1777 C nd some D
1778 to 2061 E
2068 to 2309 D
2314 to 2437 E
2444 to 2476 D
2481 to 2513 E
2519 to 2621 D
2622 to 2663 E
2668 to 2696 D/E mixed
2696 to 2721 D
2723 to 2806 E
2855 to 2940 D
2941 to 2960 E
3001 to 3086 B
3092 to 3170 D
3174 to 5... E


Remi

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

Could someone please explain this "new" (at least to me) BF 109A. The first I have heard of it was with the publication of Lynn Rithers monograph on Modeling the 109 from SAM Publications. (Note: I do not have the Ritger book)

Have I missed something all these years?

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

The appearance of the Anton dates back to Radiger/Schick work on the one-O-nine, they found documents listing several Antons WkNrs. A couple of them ended in Spain 6o4, 6o5 and 6o6 IIRC. The Antons did not differ much from the early Bertas.

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

Hi Guys

What I can see there are a lot of opinions regarding the early 109 production and with the somewhat chaotic picture published by various authors, this is not surprising.
My OWN:) Augsburg production list (the 76 BFW built) is as follows
WNr 998-999
WNr 1010-1064
WNr 1701-1719

This is based on Prien and Radinger/Schick's books, WITH the assumption that the prototypes V-9, V-10a and V-11 to V-14 were taken from the B-1 production line AND that WNr 998-999 are also B-1.
IF this is NOT agreeable, I can accept that we add 6 more WNr to the 1010-1064 batch, ie we extend it to WNr 1070

According to Prien Fieseler started with WNr 3000 and went to 3089
Radinger/Schick says 3001- with no ending but presumably means 3090
Prien follows up HIS range with D-1 WNr 3090-3170 and E-1 3171 etc, so at HE seems to be pretty sure about the Fieseler production batches

Erla is the headache and I am NOT sticking my head out on that one.

I also have a couple of questions
**Seaplane.
You say you have 22 A(-0). My own list only has only 20, which I believe is correct unless you want WNr 998-999 to be A's. This however is refuted by Radinger/Schick
**Olefebvre
You say there were only 9 B-1 in the batch 1701-1719. Source please!
**Remi
You say WNr 1719 was a D-model. Prien SPECIFICALLY mentions WNr 1719 as the final B model built by BFW and has a photo to go along his text. YOUR source please
You also say that the second BFW built batch started with 1676. No other source states this. Do you have losses relating to ALL WNr 1676-1700?

As an aside. In the late 1930's RLM must have lost control over the WNr since there now appear 109's with the SAME WNr but from different manufacturers. With no serialnumber system, such as Britain and France used, it SEEMS to me a temporary solution was to HAND OUT the WNr blocks to manufacturers as well who no longer could use their own WNr ranges. Can someone verify this procedure??

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

Thank you Stig J. Now we are getting somewhere. I am no Bf 109 specialist, but when I found all the repair works reports from 1933 - 1940, many things did not match what I found in published references on this subject. That was my reason for starting this discussion. So to the details:My references for the 22 Bf 109A machines are:RLM LC III (1a) Flugzeugbeschaffungs-Programm L.P.Nr. 7a vom 1.4.1938and Flugzeugbeschaffungs-Programm L.P.Nr. 8 vom 1.7.1938. Both clearly states that 22 Bf 109A were delivered by BFW.In my production figures, 0-Serie and V-Musters are not included. Regarding the prototypes, I have the following information from RLM Flugzeugentwicklungsprogramm vom 1.10.1937Bf 109V-1 W.Nr. 758Bf 109V-2 W.Nr. 759Bf 109V-3 W.Nr. 760Bf 109B-0 (V-4) W.Nr. 878Bf 109B-0 (V-5) W.Nr. 879Bf 109B-0 (V-6) W.Nr. 880Bf 109B-0 (V-7) W.Nr. 881Bf 109B-0 (V-8) W.Nr. 882Bf 109B-0 (V-9) W.Nr. 1056Bf 109B-0 (V-10) W.Nr. 1010Bf 109B-0 (V-11) W.Nr. 1012Bf 109B-0 (V-12) W.Nr. 1016Bf 109V-19 W.Nr. 1720 was the prototype for the C-Series.

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

1719 is marked as D-1 /in fact as D1/ 1720 is a C-1, 1717 as B-1

1676 is a B-1 but then a big gap till 1690 a B-1, then a new gap till 1706 B-1 these gaps are quite big even if my list is far to be completed gen one could miss but not more, maybe a lot sent to Spain that failed to return

I could send you my complete list for B nd D, I never found a A...

On an other list where appears mostly the Knz , I could read at least 40 bf109 totally lost for 37/38

remi

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

Thank You Seaplane and Remi

I attach my home made Me 109A/B/C production list for all to see and comment. It is not easy to sit in your home sifting various experts statements in publications published. Just take the 109B-2! What was that and where is its production? Prien makes no committment and just says production was B and mentions no B-1 or B-2. Schick /Radinger mentions BOTH types, illustrate mostly B-2 but mentions ONLY B-1 in their production table! In their list the Spanish Bf 109B were B-1 but their photos ID each one as B-2...:confused:
Seaplane
*******
I haven't heard of any B-0, although they make sense! However I find a bit awkward to accept that production B-1 used later as prototypes V-9 and up would suddenly get a B-0 designation attached to them.It makes NO sense to start a batch of B-1 in Augsburg and all of a sudden call some of them B-0....
If you look at the production list, the ONLY two A that could possibly fit to make up the 22 listed in German docs are WNr 998-999. What do you think?
Remi
****
I am not sure what you mean with WNr 1719 is "marked" D1. Do you have a photo or document? Again your source please. To me it makes NO sense at all to have ONE SINGLE D-1 in the middle of a B-1 and C-1 batch....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

i won't put to much effort in correctly matching Anton's WkNrs as for instance WkNr 884 is reffered to in several documents as a B...
My listing is much more complete and based on Losses, prodction doc, test doc from Mtt, FB and various other sources, and frankly there are a lot of inconsistencies between all those sources when it comes to the early variants.

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

He is simply following Messerschmitt's own nomenclature for the Bf 109B. It did not differentiate between the two types of the a/c. The tags -- B-1 and B-2 -- have only come into use post-war to differentiate between the early a/c with the Schwarz propeller, and the later a/c with the VDM propeller. I am not certain, but I think that when the a/c was upgraded to the VDM propeller, it also got the later, more vertical, windshield.

Re: Bf 109B-1 W.Nos. question
 

source: -Flugzeugunfälle u. verluste bei schulen usw.1940-1944
-Statische zusammenstellung der unfälle 1936-1942

remi

give me your mail adress I will send you the list, I hv no more space here to load it,
By the way Mister moderator how to recover this space ???