Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Hello,

For profile purposes, I'm trying to determine when Otto Kath transferred from 3./JG2, where he was in Sept., 1939, to the Stab of I./JG20, where he became Gruppen Adjutant, and reportedly the frequent wingman to Hannes Trautloft, the Gr Kdr. I have photos of his a/c with the later unit during the spring of 1940, carrying the black cat emblem of 2 Staffel on the cowling and the Adj Chevrons on the fuselage. Does anyone know why he would have been carrying a 2 Staffel insignia on the side of his fuselage?

Who can help?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

22 Feb 40

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Hi Gents,

I'm not sure to understand. Does it mean this is NOT Otto Kath machine?

http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=1496

According to Prien, this photo has been taken in 1939, "Frühherbst".

Regards, Franck.

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Chris/Franck,

Chris:

Since I posted this query, I've been able to consult with Kath's FB. His first flight with Stab I./JG20 was on 15.11.39 at Döberitz, in <I+. Nine days later he started flying <+, which he regularly flew thereafter. I./JG20 transferred from Brandenburg-Briest on 09.09.39, so Kath apparently joined the unit around the time of this transfer. This means that from 01.09.39 until around mid-November, someone else was Adj of I./JG20, a unit which had been formed shortly before the war. There was not yet a 3 Stafffel a/o 01.09.39.

The photo that Franck posted from the David Waiss 109 website, says that this was taken at Brandenburg-Briest and has early war top-wing crosses. This all being the case, it cannot be Kath's a/c at the time of the photo, but that of his predecessor, who I think was Hermann Reifferscheidt. I'm waiting for confirmation of that info from a source in Germany. I'm also awaiting any possible info that would confirm this was an E-3 with the W.Nr. 5205. Christian Kirsch, the source of this PK photo on the website, says that 5205 is only a possible interpretation of what is painted on the fin. This matters because it is one of our profile a/c for the EoE Project. We have other photos of this same a/c in our DB.

We are planning a color profile for Kath's a/c, but for the Phoney War period, and after the change-over to 1940 camouflage. We're going to do the one that has the 2./JG20 black cat insignia on both sides of the engine cowling, which makes no sense to me for Kath, as he couldn't have any history with 2 Staffel given his career. This may have just been a replacement cowling from a 2 Staffel a/c for one that had been damaged. This idea is possibly supported by the rudder being the old two-tone green one on a 1940-camouflaged a/c, which obviously had recently been replaced. If anyone has any other information that would shed light on this, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Also, any further confirmation that the a/c of the initial Gr Adj was W.Nr. 5205, would also be appreciated. It may well have been that Kath inherited that a/c from his predecessor, and continued flying it. His FB does not provide W.Nr. during this period, only a/c Stab symbols, so the W.Nr. can't be verified from that source.

Trying to do hundreds of photographically accurate 109 color profiles with emphasis on named pilots and known W.Nr. is one hell of a challenge.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Thanks Larry for this precision.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

What puzzles me is if he transferred from one unit to another why wasn't his FB signed off from the previous unit? It was signed off 31 Jan 40 after which he moved to Boninghardt?

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Per the FB of vom Hofe, he flew this machine once in Jul-40, still coded '<| +'. The Kath FB as I recall is coupled with the H.E. Bob FB which is a known flawed re-construction. I've not heard the same about the Kath FB.

Bf 109E-4, 5205, Hofe, Ltn. Werner Pichon Kalau vom, , III., Stab III., JG 51, schwarzes, <| + , BA+FM, , 09-Jul-40, T.O. Werkstattflug., , FR, FB W. vom Hofe; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, III, p.190 photo?, , St. Omer, -, H, , ,

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Chris,

I don't have an explanation for this, but as far as I know, I./JG20 was the only fighter unit at Döberitz at that point, I./JG2 having left just prior to I./JG20's arrival.

Further points regarding this line of research is that the personnel file of Lt. Hermann Reifferscheidt at Freiburg confirms that he was the Gr Adj of I./JG20 at the beginning of the war, and probably until Kath took over in November.

And finally, the report on the David Waiss (Falcon) website that the photo of the I./JG20 Adjutant at Brandenburg-Briest AF circa Sept., 1939 was W.Nr. 5205 is bogus. WNr 5205 didn't come off the WNF production line until February, 1940. It is known to have flown with III./JG51 (the successor unit to I./JG20), as there is a reference to that W.Nr. in the Pichon-Kalau vom Hofe FB in mid-July as <I+ (another of our profiles). I'm not sure who the regular pilot was, but it may have been Lt. Herbert Wehnelt, the NO. If anyone knows what plane he flew, I'd appreciate knowing this.

Does anyone know what Stab position a Capt. Haase on the Stab of I./JG20 held in late-June, 1940?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Jim,

Thanx for your input. I was writing my above post when your item posted, and I didn't see it until after I'd sent mine.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Hi Jim, Larry

If Jim can suppose (with ?) that <I we see on two photos page 190 is 5205 noticed later in III./JG 51; why not, to be complete, include the photo page 198, same volume??

This is the full Stab taken in May 1940 with an amazing feature:
Prien writes Winkel Kreis, Winkel Balken, Winkel and Winkel Dreieck. Well, it seems that Winkel should be "read" Winkel plus two little Balken. What do you think?

Regards, Franck.

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Still puzzled especially when Reifferscheidt in his autobiography made no mention on JG 20 but one of his photos taken at Sprottau said he was Gr Adj of I/JG 2. I/JG 20 was at Sprottau for a Week in Sep 39 not I/JG 2. Who he thought was von Massow in the photo must be Lehmann then.

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Hi Guys, Hi Friends,

I think this is one perfect moment - regarding the difficulties Larry is facing - to say thank you to all of you.
You have been patient, I learned a lot and I still do; thanks to you all.... Including Peter Evans!

Best regards, Franck.

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Hi Chris,

Very interesting to hear that Reifferscheidt published an autobiography. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could provide some more details about it.

Thanks and best regards,
Leon Venter

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Leon

It was about 20 pages as opposed to a book and his combat experience was very limited (thanks to Pyker Offenburg!)

Regards

Chris

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

You probably mean Offenberg.

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Of course-excuse me for my simple typo (from memory, at work on a hot day)

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Chris et. al.,

Thanx for enlightening me on what your sources are. How and where can I get a copy of the Reifferscheidt autobio? German language?

The Kath and Reifferscheidt questions show the minefields out there in trying to pin down definitive information on such subjects. The EoE Profile project is forcing me to ask a lot of questions about such subjects, and I'm finding in several cases that the previously published information is either incomplete, or just plain incorrect. Our EoE team is trying to be very, very careful that we don't just take what has previously been accepted as settled fact, without trying to trace things to their best, and hopefully original, sources. Some of our German friends have been incredibly helpful (and patient) with my incessant questions.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Franck, if we're thinking of the same photo, here's what I have from vom Hofe's FB (he may have at one time or another in that May/Jun-40 period flown each of the 4 Stab machines from that photo. The first entry may somewhat be an assist to answering Larry's question).

Bf 109E-1, 3419, Hofe, Ltn. Werner Pichon Kalau vom, , I., Stab I., JG 20, schwarzes, <| +, , , 06-May-40, Gr.T.O. Three transit flights on this date. Combat flight on 16-Jun., , Lfl.2/Sitzkrieg, FB W. vom Hofe; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, III, p.188 photo, , , -, H, , ,
Bf 109E-4, 1110, Hofe, Ltn. Werner Pichon Kalau vom, , I., Stab I., JG 20, schwarzes, <▫ +, , , 10-May-40, Gr.T.O. First flew this date. 16 more flights through 27-Jun-40., Is this Herbert Wehnelt's machine?, Lfl.2/Westfeldzug, FB W. vom Hofe; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, III, p.188 photo, , , -, F, , ,
Bf 109E-4, 1490, Hofe, Ltn. Werner Pichon Kalau vom, 21, I., Stab I., JG 20, schwarzes, <o +,ER+GA, Ax of Lower Rhein beneath cockpit, 13-May-40, Gr.T.O. First flight. His 'regular' machine through 20-Aug-40., 2-Jun-40 to III./JG 51?, Westfeldzug/Kanal, FB W. vom Hofe; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, III, p.187-8 photos; Meyer & Stipdonk, Von der Fliegerschule zum Einsatzverband p.112 photo, , , -, F, , ,
Bf 109E-1, 6060, Hofe, Ltn. Werner Pichon Kalau vom, , I., Stab I., JG 20, schwarzes, << +, , , 07-Jun-40, Gr.T.O. Werkstattflug., , Westfeldzug, FB W. vom Hofe; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, III, p.188 photo, , St. Omer, -, H, , ,

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Hi Jim,

Thanks for this extract. I understand why you didn't but the two "<I" in the same "basket"! :)

If so; is it possible to find a loss for 3419 (between May and ... July)? With which pilot?
Note this same machine was in II./JG 5 loss list, as an E-7, on 25-Apr-1942, at Fl.Pl. Kirkenes; Landing accident I think. No more details - it was a time I didn't note more ... (Cf SIG and/or Andreas)

And I notice with pleasure you wrote <II for 1110; it wasn't just a speck on the photo.

Best regards, Franck.

PS: Well, again good stuffs through this thread; as wrote Larry " ... we don't just take what has previously been accepted as settled fact ..."

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Jim,

Re: "Bf 109E-1, 3419, Hofe, Ltn. Werner Pichon Kalau vom, , I., Stab I., JG 20, schwarzes, <| +, , , 06-May-40, Gr.T.O. Three transit flights on this date. Combat flight on 16-Jun., , Lfl.2/Sitzkrieg, FB W. vom Hofe; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, III, p.188 photo, , , -, H, , ,

From my notes and deductions, until this post, I believed that this was probably the a/c of Oblt. Christel Borries, the Chef of the Stab Co, who was shot down in the Dunkirk area and killed on 31.05.40. This a/c was replaced with a "new" <I+, which I've thought was probably Wehnelt's a/c after Borries went down. Wehnelt was the Gr N.O. (Signals Officer). It is this heavily mottled a/c which was photographed flying over the Eiffel Tower at the end of June, in a fly over by the Stab of I./JG20. This photo can be seen in Prien's JFV#3, P.190 (if I remember correctly). This will be one of our color profiles in the EoE Series. However, if vom Hofe flew this on June 16th, it can't be the a/c flown by Oblt Borries and shot down on 31.05.40.

So now, back to the drawing board, unless you're recorded the 16 June entry incorrectly. There is no question, however, that the <I+ in the photo of the Stab a/c in May (tail centered swastika) is a different a/c than the heavily mottled one that flew over the Eiffel Tower at the end of June. Obviously, something happened to the <I in the first photo and it was replaced by the end of the Western Campaign.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

"And I notice with pleasure you wrote <II for 1110; it wasn't just a speck on the photo."

If I'm remembering correctly the '<II' is actually a little square shaped marking.

I'll have to refer to the FB again to see if vom Hofe recorded the code like this, and to make sure I recorded the '<|' correctly for Larry.

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Checked FB again, WNr. 1110 is recorded in the vom Hofe FB as '<▫' - the item behind the winkel is a little square box. '<|' is indeed the code reported for WNr. 3419 along with a Werkstattflug in another '<|' WNr. 5205 on 9-Jul-40. His primary aircraft during this May/Jun/Jul-40 period was WNr. 1490 '<o'. vom Hofe is one of those rare pilots who listed both WNr. and code for this period.

Re: Seeking info on when Lt Otto Kath joined Stab I./JG20 early in 1940?
 

Good morning Jim,

Thank you very much for having checked it again.

Best regards, Franck.