2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

I have been sent a copy of a "kill" report by the above unit and would like some help in determining if this is an aircraft previously reported or a new one that was lost on 22 Sept 1943.
the report says that the above unit shot down a bomber at 21:41 hrs 22.9.1943 south of the island of Schiermonnikoog. The a/c came down in the water, this was seem by the flak crew in the report.
No parachutes where seen and from this all must have been killed.

There are 2 losses from information I have found that were shot down over the dutch coast that night.

77 Sqdn LW224 Halifax II hit by flak 21:52 off Den Helder. 5 crew are commemorated on the Runneymede memorial and 2 are buried in Den Burgh General Cem.

432 Sqdn LN547 Wellington X. No details are in Chorley's BCL 1943 but information says it came down in the Ijsselmeer. All crew were captured later.

Both these aircraft seem too far from the reported action to be the same aircraft, and the crew would not have been able to see it in the water from there. do any of the more knowledgeable members have any clue as to whether it is a new aircraft? Or am I looking at this wrong?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Regards

Nick

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Nick

No answer as such, but from where is your source regarding LN547?

In Air Britain's LA100-LZ999 booklet the aircraft is listed as delivered to 432 Sq but then it states no further trace after August 1943. I then take it that its record card is incompete. Do you have 432 Sq record book or perhaps some Canadian information?

It is impossible to trace aircraft in Chorley's books, so I would be interested in if you have any names listed for the loss of LN547.

B Rgds
Stig

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Hello Stig

The information on LN547 was originally sent to me by Rob phillips and as you can see he quoted Hans Nauta for this info.

LN 547 Wellington X 432 Sqn QO-G

22/23-9-1943

Skipton-on-Swale/Yorkshire - 19.07h Hannover

Flak - crashed in the IJsselmeer, Holland - 21.52h

Sgt(P) TIERNEY, L.J. - 1389224 - RAF - 357-634
P/O(N) SEWELL, J.R. - 148815 - RAF - L3-2635
P/O(Ba) WHETTON, L.M. - RAF - PoW
Sgt(WAG) MUCH, J.H. - RAF - PoW
Sgt(RG) WILLIAMS, B. - NZ412776 - RNZAF - L4-635

Crew was arrested on the IJsselmeer and in the Wieringermeer area
(Info Hans Nauta).

I do not have access to the 432 Sqdn ORB's so I am afraid that I cannot verify the above details. But saying that Rob (sadly no with us anymore and a ex-member of many forums) was very knowledgeable and thorough with the information he sent me. Hans is also a member of this forum and maybe he can help you if this a/c is of interest.

Nick

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Hi Nick and Stig,

The correct serial is LN457 and on page 327 of Bomber Command Losses 1943 by Chorley.

I've checked the Aircraft Loss Card, but there are no clues on that regarding the cause of the loss. The briefed route was 53.50N, 04.00E - 52.40N, 04.20E - Hannover - 52.10N, 09.45E - 53.50N, 04.00E - base

Technically it could have been in the vicinity of the Isle of Schiermonnikoog.

It's difficult to tie up the claim with either LN457 or LW224 as there is another candidate: Halifax LK635 of 428 Squadron. As none of the crew members has a known grave this one may have come down in sea too, also in an inner sea like the Waddenzee South of Schiermonnikoog...

Regards,
Hans

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Hello,

Bomb Aimer on No.432 Sqn Wellington:QO-G, 1554368/148837 P/O Leslie Maurice WHITTON RAFVR L3/2638.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/36161/pages/3976

Col.

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Puzzling. Air Britain has this Wellington as LN-547. LN-457 was also with 432 but was struck off charge in 1948 after a stint with 1690 flt and 19 OTU. The crew was indeed hit by flak, but in the target area. They ran out of gas on the way home.
Hope this helps. Richard

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Thanks to you all for the replies

LN547: "run out of gas on the way home" would account for all the crew surviving as they would have been able to make a controlled landing. So I assume that the report does not relate to the 432 Sqdn a/c.

My gut instinct tells me that the report must be LW224. Without knowing where the "off Den Helder" info comes from in BCL 1943 I cannot say that this is 100% correct. LK635 is my research a/c and from research is said to have been lost in the target area. LW224 has 2 of her crew buried and accounted for which puts her in the vaccinity, whereas LK635 is a total loss giving no clues as to her fate, up to now.

I have a copy of the German report and if you would like me to send it please ask. It may be that a correct translation of the German may be more use in determining if it does actually belong to LW224.

Nick

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Hi Nick,

I've had a closer look as where the two bodies of LW224 washed ashore and that's De Mok on Southern tip of Texel. Due to the local currents and tides it's as good as impossible to drift from the Waddenzee South of Schiermonnikoog to the location where te bodies were recovered.

There might be another source to sort out which aircraft was lost at what location. Document number AIR14/3213 and onwards in The National Archives in London contain the raid plots of Bomber Command. There is a map with the raid track and known losses from w/t information and witness reports of other crews. These last reports are also known as Z reports. This source is not often consulted and I'm convinced Chorley didn't use that for his marvelous research. It might shed a light on what actually happened...

Good luck,
Hans

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Gentlemen

Thanks for your input.
First of all I checked Chorley and the loss of LN547 is very much included on page 327 ( I did not do that until now....:o)

Richard
You say that Air Britain has this information. In my issue from 1991 it is not.
Seems you have a later printing of this booklet.

So can we settle once and for all that it was LN547 which was lost this late evening?

B Rgds
Stig

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

I do not think so. According to the German report the plane came down in the Waddenzee between Schiermonnikoog and Zoutkamp. The distance between this crashplace and crashlocation of the LN547 is about 100 km. Even German Flak personnel do not make these kind of mistakes.
Further research is needed and actions are taken in coordination with Nick.

Jaap Woortman

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

To add to this discussion, the crew of LN-547 floated around for 4 days before being picked up. They were spotted once by a Beaufighter on the first day and a JU-88 in the morning on the fourth day and a Dornier flying boat later in the day. A rescue launch took them to Borkum.
Regards, Richard

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Sorry Jaap

What I ment was if we can settle that it was LN547 and NOT LN457 which came down on this date....
However I am basically convinced that it was by now :D

Cheers
Stig

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Gentlemen

It seems that we should now be looking at LW224 if these two aircraft are the only ones to be brought down in this area that night. But as Hans has said the bodies where washed up on the southern tip of Texel and from this the tides would mean if the crew went into the water south of Schirnmonnkoog they couldn't drift that way.
The problem with LW224 is the bodies. So do we have another aircraft?

The German report says that no parachutes were seen. Although in the dark and in the heat of battle confusion reigns, the night was starry with 2/10th cloud in their statements the flak crew also said they had a good view of the enveloping action, so I think their report must be believed.

The Z files may hold some answers but that will not be today. I have read books that state once the bombing run was completed it was every man for himself. Now, I am not sure if crews would stay in formation on the return leg or from sheer relief that they got through just opened the throttle and steer close to the intended return co-ordinates.Even on the return, it must have been safety in numbers.

From the notes Rob Phillips sent me only LW224 & LK635 have 5 or more crew missing on that night. All other aircraft that were lost their crews can be accounted for in one of the many cemeteries. Research into LK635 is centered around 4 Graves in Hanover bearing the date 22 September 1943 but marked as unknown's.

So again I am at a loss.

Nick

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Hi Nick and others,

The bomber crews used to fly back in a continuous stream in that part of the war, that's why there is a good chance of reports from other crews.

I've checked the raid plot in the Interception and Tactics Reports (AIR14/3743) and there is a small flag near Schiermonnikoog on that map, indicating that something has happened there.

Richard, what is your source for the fact that the Wellington crew was taken ashore at the German Isle of Borkum?
My source is the German Kriegsgefangenen Kartei (POW card index). Two crew members were captured at sea near the Wieringermeer, a third in the Wieringermeer polder.

Regards,
Hans

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Hans. I have the loss of aircraft reports by all crew members. I can send them to you if you wish. It seems odd that they all were not captured in the same place if all were in a dinghy.
Regards, Richard

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Richard,

It would be great if you could send these report to Hans. It would give us the possibility to study these discrepancies between the info from the German Kriegsgefangenenkartei and the postwar reports of the crewmembers.

Jaap Woortman
Study Group Airwar 1939-1945

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

I have taken a look at the raid details in AIR14/3411

I found the map with the black flags and indeed it shows a flag over Schiermonnkoog.
Not sure how this relates but in the narrative under Alternative targets:

10 a/c dropped their loads in the area's of - Hildesheim, Neustadt, Springe, Emden (2), Groningen, Loningen, Dokkun, Schiermonnkoog & Vlieland.

The a/c that attacked Schiermonnkoog was a Lanc from 5 Group. It jettisoned
1 X 4000, 1560 X 4 & 80 X 30 incendaries. The reason for this appears to have been mechanical defect that prevented the attack on the primary target.

So does the black flag relate to this a/c attacking the Island? Or would this be a combat report?
Not sure which a/c was involved but the main track for the outward route is shown crossing Schiermonnkoog which could mean that the problem the a/c had happened before reaching the target.

In the 61 Sqn ORB for that night one of their lancs ED314 returned early as the Port Outer was U/S and jettisoned 1 X 4000 HC at 53.42N - 02.18E. Not sure if I plotted this correctly, help may be needed, but it shows it in the middle of the North Sea.

Also from 428 Sqdn Halifax V LK906 NA-D reported that their Port Outer supercharger was U/S and jettisoned their bombload at 54.13N - 03.26E at 20.24pm. Again this a/c returned safe but help with the plotting please.

Of the 38 attacks on a/c, 22 occurred within 20 miles of the target on the return & 8 over home bases.

So, the German report seems to relate to an outward bound a/c unless other squadron's take off time was much earlier that 61 & 428 Sqdn's. The return of aircraft from those two was roughly 1am at base.

Nick

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Richard:

Would you have Z forms in your research? From the discussion in this thread this form (if they still survive) would be a vital source.

This raid is my main research because of the loss of LK635 so any information regarding that night is of interest to me. I seem to move my thinking the more I read and have pondered on whether this is an un-accounted a/c that has come down. And as LK635 is the only one that seems to be un-accounted for, it looks as though I will be looking further into this report in the future.

Is there a record of "Unknown's" in cemeteries?

Nick

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

I Have contacted Bill Chorley and he says that the information regarding LW224 and its location would have come from Hans de Haan.

So, the question appears to return, Is this report for a previously uninvestigated aircraft?
LK635 is the only one left that has no details on her fate that night.

Does anyone have knowledge of the Z reports that Hans mentions and if any for the raid an Hanover that night survive?

I have copies of the ORB & the raid summary but what other documents should be looked at, that might highlight corroborating evidence?

Nick

For the Mods: If you feel this thread would be better in the Allied section then please move> It appears that although I initially requested information of the Flak unit, it is now turned into a search for an Allied bomber.

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Hello Nick. The PRO has a group of files called Raid Plots. They contain the Z-files. Unfortunately there is not a full set. Air 14/3219 covers August 1943 and Air 14/3220 covers October 1943. Seems that they did not save Sept 1943.
Regards, Richard

Re: 2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246
 

Thanks for that Richard.

It has been the same story all through my research. Do you have any suggestions of which documents may fill in the gap?

Nick