Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.09.39
 

Hello,

I'm seeking photos of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & PoW near Sarreguemines, France, about 2km E of Sarreguemines, France, on 24 September 1939. There was a big air battle in the area on that date, which resuted in three planes from JGr152 down in French territory. and 2-3 others that FL in German territory.

According to our EoE Luft Loss list:

"24 September 1939: 2./JGr.152 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down by Sgt Combette of GC I/3 and forced-landed 2 km north-east of Rimling, east of Sarreguemines 12.50 p.m. FF Gefr Adolf Hesselbach captured unhurt. Aircraft Red 9 + 100% write-off. (GC I/3 doc via RS)
This aircraft was made serviceable for evaluation by the French but crashed on a test flight at Nancy on October 6. It is believed that it was subsequently repaired and passed to the RAF on 22 December, being flown from Coulommiers to Tangmere, en-route to the A&AEE Boscombe Down, by W/C J.F.X. McKenna. Grounded at Tangmere by weather and refuelling problems it never arrived at Boscombe Down and its ultimate fate is unknown. Hesselbach returned from French captivity on June 30, 1940."

This was apparently "Red 9," and there should be photos out there somewhere of this downed a/c, which I would like to profile. Can anyone supply photos of this incident or know what ultimately happened to this Bf109D-1?

Does anyone have any other photos of a/c lost on the German side that day? I have one photo of Yellow 12, from 3 Staffel, which is the same one published on P.97 of Peter Cornwell's "The Battle of France: Then and Now." This was the a/c of Lt Rosenkranz. Would appreciate additional photos of this a/c, and any others, including those down in German territory, if any are known.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Hello Larry,

Maybe i,ve got a picture from the red 9 2/JG 71 W.Nr 3326 from the waffen arsenal band 87 [podzun-pallas ] .
There is also another picture from investigation by the French.

Let me know if your interessted

Regards harrie

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

harrie,

Thanx for taking the time of answer my request.

Actually, the a/c that you're talking about is "Red 9" of 2./JG51, which FL at Kirschacker", Geudertheim, 4 km SE of Brumath, Alsace, France, on September 28th. I have a number of photos of this one in the EOE photo DB, and it will likely be one of our color profile a/c. However, all of my photos show only the starboard side of the a/c, and if any of the photos to which you refer show the port side, please let me know, as I'd like a digital copy. If anyone else has a photo of the port side of this a/c, please let me know.

Still looking for photos of the 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 "Red 9" down on the Sept 24th. There have to be photos out there in French collections of this a/c.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Hello,

There was another loss to JGr152 on the same day from an unknown Staffel, which we currently carry in the EoE Luft Loss DB as:

"24 September 1939: JGr.152 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down by Adj Dardaine of GC II/4 in combat east of Hornbach, and crashed near Betviller, east of Sarreguemines 3.40 p.m. FF Oberlt Roland Borth captured badly wounded. Aircraft a write-off. (Not in QMG nor Prien)"

Does anyone know the Staffel assignment of this a/c, or have any photos of this crash?

There are photos of a MS406 unit displaying one of the crosses cut as a souvenir from one of the three JGr152 losses that day, and I'd like to locate photos of the actual wreckage of the these, including additional photos of Yellow 10 of 3 Staffel. They have to be out there somewhere. A crashed German fighter was a pretty unique event at that stage of the war, and you would have expected there to have been lots of photos taken.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Hello Larry,

Hope this works ,i try for first time to upload pictures ,they are in the field additional options ,hope you can see.
The pictures are indeed from starboard-side .

If it not,s showing please let me know.

Regards harrie

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Harrie,

Thanx for taking the time to do this. These scans came out fine. Yes, these are both photos of "Red 9" of 2./JG51, FL by Uffz Georg Pavenzinger on 28.09.39. I do already have both of these in the EoE Luft Photo Data Base. A photo reference to the port-side view of this a/c would still be welcome.

We are still looking for photos of "Red 9," or any of the other JGr152 Bf109D-1s that were lost or damaged on 24.09.39.

Who can help. There must be photos of some of these out there somewhere, probably in French sources.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator


Still

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

"24 September 1939: JGr.152 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down by Adj Dardaine of GC II/4 in combat east of Hornbach, and crashed near Betviller, east of Sarreguemines 3.40 p.m. FF Oberlt Roland Borth captured badly wounded. Aircraft a write-off. (Not in QMG nor Prien)"

Larry,
could you please give us the information regarding Olt. Borth coming from French documents only? What was there exactly noted?

I mean Adj Dardaine fought at 15.30-15.40 against Messerschmitts coming from 6./JG 53.

Regards,
Marius

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

I recorded the Borth loss from Chris Shores' "Fledgling Eagles". I presume this is the same Borth as in this later loss:

Bf 109E-7, 6305, Borth, Major Roland, , III., Stab III., ZG 1, grüne A, S9+AD, , , 01-Sep-42, Gr.Kdr. WIA due to Luftkampf with 15 enemy fighters. POW, DOW 9-Sep-42., , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Afrika, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #7)-Vol.11; Vasco, The Sting of the LW, p.133; LW Colors, V.2, , östlich El Alamein, 100%, F, , ,

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Hello Larry,
Further to Harrie's post #5, There also is another photo of the starboard side of Pavenzinger's "red 9" in the Mushroom book "Fighters over France and the Low Countries" ISBN8291632717, which states that the source is "SHAA". The book has many photos of French aircraft from this source so perhaps a port view and other interesting photo s are located there. Unfortunately I do not know of SHAA, but thought I should bring it to your attention.
Regards
Peter

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

"I recorded the Borth loss from Chris Shores' "Fledgling Eagles"."

Maybe it is not Olt. Roland Borth on the 24.9.1939 (?). At around the same time there was recorded the loss of Olt. Heinz Barth from II./ZG 1 who crashed at Bischofstein (East Prussia).
Borth - Barth ?

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Marius,

I don't know what Peter's source was for the Borth loss, but I've written to him and asked him to follow up with you on this.

Regards,

Larry

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

"24 September 1939: JGr.152 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down by Adj Dardaine of GC II/4 in combat east of Hornbach, and crashed near Betviller, east of Sarreguemines 3.40 p.m. FF Oberlt Roland Borth captured badly wounded. Aircraft a write-off. (Not in QMG nor Prien)"


Larry,
one more absurdity; near Betviller (at Rimling) came down Gefr. Adolf Hesselbach. I doubt Dardaine had something to do with the losses of JGr.152.
Maybe I can help with the aerial Luftwaffe operations on the 24th, but I have to know what is giving in French documents about the pilot or name "Olt. Borth".

Regards,

ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach near Sarreguemines 24.09.39 = destroyed
 

Attachment 9007

Hello,

1) the photos show both sides of "red 9" (Bf 109 E) of JG 51 that landed on its wheels the 28th september 1939 in french territory north of Strasbourg.

It was this plane that was tested by the french.

2) The other "red 9" of JGr. 152 (Bf 109 D), shot down the 24th september by the sergent Combette of GC I/3, was destroyed : the report says that the german pilot (Hesselbach) took is chute to save is life. The report says that the plane felt "côte 392 à 1500 au NO de Rimling).

I never saw a photo of this wreck, and I am sure that this plane was not tested by the french.

Please forgive my basic english.

RB

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Remi,

Thanx for posting the photo of the port side of "Red 9." That will help us get the positioning of the "Red 9," correct if we do a color profile of this a/c.

Your info on Hesselbach is most helpful, and will require us to modify our loss entry when Peter C. recovers from a temporary indisposition. He'll probably jump in here when he gets back on track. Now I'm wondering it the info on "Red 9" for the 2./JGr152 aircraft isn't somehow confused with the 28 September loss of "Red 9" from 2./JG51, which was captured intact and tested. If Hesselbach bailed out, it seems probable that there would be little left from which to determine the a/c number as "Red 9," unless this came from interrogation of the pilot.

Remi, I know that you've been researching these losses for many years. Is it possible that you've run across photos of other crashes, including badly smashed a/c, from French sources for the Phoney War period, that would help us document the wrecks (both German and Allied). Obviously we already have copies of the photos published in the "The Battle of France Then and Now," since Peter wrote it, but we're looking for photos of the many other planes that came down during the Phoney War, including ones that were no more than scattered wreckage, or smoking holes in the ground.

I hope that you can provide further help. Have you ever located photos of "Yellow 12" of 3./JGr152 that came down on Sept. 24th, or any of the other German crashes that day? Have you ever discovered photos of any of the Fairey Battles that fell on French soil on Sept 30th?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE project Coordinator

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Thanks to several contributors to this thread various important revisions have been made to the EOE database of Lw losses on 24 September 1939.
Marius is quite correct in that the original (and only) source for the reference to Oberlt BORTH of JGr152 was Shores' Fledgling Eagles so presumably this originated from the late Heinrich WEISS ? I am not aware of any French reports concerning this and as no reliable corroboration for it has (seemingly) ever been established I have deleted the entry.

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Hi,

here is German situation report:

1)no own reconnaissance activity
2)little enemy aerial activity (border patrols)
3)enemy losses: at 10.55 hrs two Ms 406`s were shot down during a dogfight between 8 Ms 406`s and six Bf109`s in the area of Saarbrücken-Saargemünd.
At 12.40 hrs also hrs two Ms 406`s were shot down during a dogfight between 6 Ms 406`s and six Bf109`s over Saargemünd.
Furthermore 3 Curtiss fighters were shot down at 15.30 hrs over Bitche and yet another was downed in unknown place.

Robert

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Hello,

With his posting above, Peter Cornwell has confirmed that there will be no photos of a force-laned Bf109D-1 "Red 9," from 2./JGr152 (ex 2./ZG52). Since the pilot parachuted the plane would have been smashed to pieces. As I suspected, part of our information was confused with the intact Bf109E-1 of 2./JG51, "Red 9" that landed intact in France on 28.09.39, and which disappeared in Britain (from available records) before it could be tested. Since both planes carried the a/c number, "Red 9," can it be determined where the information on the 2./JGr152 a/c "Red 9," comes from? If the plane was smashed to pieces, was sufficient wreckage found to determine this? Or did this come from the interrogation of the captured pilot? Who knows this? I want to be sure that we still aren't confusing the markings of these two aircraft.

Second, I'm still looking for additional photos of the a/c of Lt. Rosenkranz, "Yellow 12," of 3./JGr152, that was shot down intact near Obergailbach France, on 24 Sept 1939. I particularly need a photo of the markings carried on the prop spinner, as this has never been documented or illustrated for this unit during 1939. There have to be more than the one known photo of the side of the a/c showing only the "Yelllow 12" in existence somewhere, probably in some French collection. A crashed German fighter at this period of the war was a sensational event, and surely was well photographed. I've been through the ECPA-D and SH-D photo collections in Paris and haven't yet located anything further on this a/c.

There were also two other Bf109D-1s from 3./JGr152 that made good belly landings in Germany following this air battle, one near Weilerbach with Lt. Horst Elstermann, and another near Bingen, with Lt. Hartmann Grasser. Both pilots were unhurt. It seems likely that photos exist of one or more of these a/c in some local German collections, but they would only be identifiables by their yellow a/c numbers with thin black outlines. Neither a/c would have carried any unit insignias.

I know that both of these are very tough questions, but I'm hoping that someone out there, probably in France or Germany, can come up with some further information or photos.

Thanx for your help.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Larry,

Any idea what schemes these aircraft would have carried? Pre war or with RLM 71/02 uppers and RLM 65 fuselage sides?

Best Regards

Chris

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Chris,

Just downloaded and looked at the very large number of unidentified Bf109D-1 photos that you sent from your collection. Only a few FL a/c and none that jumped out at me. A fair number of these mystery a/c are probably identifiable, but it perfectly exemplifies the problem I'm having in creating unit profile a/c from this period. At least some photos of the D-1s from 1 and 3./ZG52, which temporarily became 1 and 3./JG152 on 24.09.39 are probably sitting in the unidentified files of collectors, including some of the top German collections.

Without a date, location or unit of the source collection, these can only be identified by unique prop spinner markings or a/c number stencil styles, when they are unique enough to help. Unfortunately, for these two units we don't know the prop spinner style, although we know the style for 2 Staffel, which is a 3/4 solid red spinner front, with a very thin white ring just ahead of solid black spinner back plate (See JFV 2, P.544). How the hell this was adapted for 1 and 3 staffel is anyone's guess because the white ring would be all but invisible against yellow spinner fronts, on all but the highest resolution photos. Obviously it would be invisible and thus not applied to any 1 Staffel a/c if it followed the same pattern. Perhaps we're looking for 109D-1s with 3/4 white or yellow fronts and black back plates.

Another way to get at this might be to look at the Ar68Es of I./ZG143 during early 1939, as the prop spinners of 2 Staffel a/c there, in the I./ZG52 predecessor unit, used a similar pattern to 2./ZG52 -- a red front half followed by the thin white ring, and a black rear half (See P.374 of JFV I). Perhaps someone has photos of a/c of that unit from 1 and 3 Staffel which might tip us off to the spinner patterns used in the successor units.

The a/c numbers tend to be rounded in style, but otherwise look similar to those of many other units of the time. We do know that we're looking for photos (other than for forced-landings or crashes) that would have been taken at the airfields at Biblis (01.09.39-31.10.39), Odendorf (31.10.39-29.11.39) or Düsseldorf-Lohausen (2911.39-06.01.40).

So, that is the challenge. Can anyone help solve this mystery, or provide photos of the FL I./JGr152 a/c that came down in Germany on 24.09.39, or, for that matter, any other time during the Phoney War?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking photos and ultimate fate of 2./JGr152 Bf109D-1 flown by Gefr A. Hesselbach SD & POW on the German-French border near Sarreguemines on 24.0
 

Chris,

Just downloaded and looked at the very large number of unidentified Bf109D-1 photos that you sent from your collection. Only a few FL a/c and none that jumped out at me. A fair number of these mystery a/c are probably identifiable, but it perfectly exemplifies the problem I'm having in creating unit profile a/c from this period. At least some photos of the D-1s from 1 and 3./ZG52 and 1 and 3./JG152 are probably sitting in the unidentified files of collectors, including some of the top German collections.

Without a date, location or unit of the source collection, these can only be identified by unique prop spinner markings or a/c number stencil styles, when they are unique enough to help. Unfortunately, for these two units we don't know the prop spinner style, although we know the style for 2 Staffel, which is a 3/4 solid red spinner front, with a very thin white ring just ahead of solid black spinner back plate (See JFV 2, P.544). How the hell this was adapted for 1 and 3 staffel is anyone's guess because the white ring would be all but invisible against yellow spinner fronts, on all but the highest resolution photos. Obviously it would be invisible and thus not applied to any 1 Staffel a/c if it followed the same pattern. Perhaps we're looking for 109D-1s with 3/4 white or yellow fronts and black back plates.

Another way to get at this might be to look at the Ar68Es of I./ZG143 during early 1939, as the prop spinners of 2 Staffel a/c there, in the I./ZG52 predecessor unit, used a similar pattern to 2./ZG52 -- a red front half followed by the thin white ring, and a black rear half (See P.374 of JFV I). Perhaps someone has photos of a/c of that unit from 1 and 3 Staffel which might tip us off to the spinner patterns used in the successor units.

The a/c numbers tend to be rounded in style, but otherwise look similar to those of many other units of the time. We do know that we're looking for photos (other than for forced-landings or crashes) that would have been taken at the airfields at Biblis (01.09.39-31.10.39), Odendorf (31.10.39-29.11.39) or Düsseldorf-Lohausen (2911.39-06.01.40).

So, that is the challenge. Can anyone help solve this mystery?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator