Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Hello,

This unit detected an incoming recon mission by five Fairey Battles and scrambled intercepting fighters on 30.09.39. What kind of a unit was this and how did it detect an incoming raid? radar? communications intercept? sound detection equipment?

Can anyone help me with this?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

7.(Flugm.)/Luftgau-Nachr.Rgt. 12 was setting up one of the first German radar sites on the Helenenberg near Trier on 20 Sep 39. At the end of Jun 40, the Kompanie transferred to Rennes to begin setting up the Flugmelde organization in Brittany.

So at the time of the raid 10 days later, its radar set was up and operational. I don't know what kind it was, but probably an early Freya. Perhaps our good friend and esteemed member SES will see this and provide additional information. German radar (Funkmeßgerät) is his area of expertise.

See:
Hoffmann, Karl Otto, Ln: Die Geschichte der Luftnachrichtentruppe, 3 Bde (Neckargemünd, 1965-73). Band 1/s.16-18.

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Larry,

If this was one of the first successful radar intercepts, this event may be hugely significant in the history of WWII. The Fairey Battle formation was wiped out by the fighters reportedly scrambled as a result of their detection by this unit. The British formation was on a high-altitude photographic recon of the Saarbrücken-Merzig area. Is this consistent with the position of the radar site as you indicated? Would this have been one of the first successful radar interceptions of the war? I hope that SES does see this and add what he knows about this radar site, and whether a German report still exists of the radar detection of this formation and the following air battle.

Can anyone provide a photo of this or a similar radar site from this period for the EoE Project account of this mission? We are now in a position to reconstruct what happened in great detail in the air.

Regards,

Larry

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Larry,

What is the full spell out of the abbreviations here:

7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12

7.)Flugm.)/Luftgau-Nachrichten Rgt. 12 (Is this correct?)

What does "Flugm." expand to?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

7.(Flugmelde)/Luftgau-Nachrichten-Regiment 12.
[7th Company (Aircraft Reporting)/Air District Signals Regiment 12]

L.

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Good evening Larry H. & Larry dZ. !

Helenenberg (Gemeinde Welschbillig = community of Welschbillig) is located midway between the western German towns Trier and Bitburg at the Bundesstrasse B 51. My hometown is about 8 km from this place, so I take the next days some reasearches in this matter. I hope to find still an eyewhitness, since 1939 to now is a very long time.

The Saarbrücken - Merzig area is about 50 - 80 km South of Helenenberg. Could this fit in the early days of a/c detection ?.

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Hi Horst,

According to a very old German book, the Helenenberg Funkmeßgerät would have been an early version of the Freya and would have operated in the 2.2-mm or 2.4-mm bandwidth range. It had a range of 120 km, so it would have been able to pick up the incoming formation of Battles.

Source:
Lusar, Rudolf. German Secret Weapons of the Second World War. New York: Philosophical Library, 1959. Hb. Dj. 264p. Illus. Index. pp.172-73.

Larry

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Larry/Horst,

Thanx for the help. It appears that there is an important story here, which I hope that we will be able to acquire and use.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Larry,

Surely you mean a wavelength of 2.2 m or 2.4 m which would result in a frequency of 136.136 MHz or 125 MHz.

Andy Fletcher

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Yes, that would be right.

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Hi
I have now info on this particular event, only the following general description.
At the outbreak of WW II Germany had set up a chain of seven radar sites equipped with the early version of the Freya (125 Mhz, 120 km range). It was operated partly by the Luftwaffe and partly by the Kriegsmarine. It gave complete radar coverage at Germany's western border at medium altitude from the French/German to the Danish/German border.
The procedures for day fighter employment was very makeshift, but a number of spectacular results were actually achieved in the first few month of the war. This can partly be attributed to the British lack of knowledge of existence of German radars. Please see:
http://www.gyges.dk/german_day_fighter_control.htm
and
http://www.gyges.dk/Himmelbett.htm
Hope this adds a little.
bregds
SES

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Larry !

In the very helpful French booklet series BATAILLES AERIENNES, Vol. 3 (NOV/DEC 1997 & JAN 1998) appears a little article about the theme, titled: LES RADARS ALLEMANDS EN 1939. It is on page 49 of the issue. With the help of my son and google, we managed to translate the little article.

It tells, that the protection of the franco-german border was started by the erection of 2 FREYA devices at the end of September 1939 at a hill near Helenenberg near Trier. After this, at mid December 1939, an additional device could be connected from the hill "Grosser Hausberg", East of Landstuhl/Pfalz. The complete network (in LGK 12 !!!!) became operational in Junuary 1940, when the station Kandel, with view to the Black Forest, became operational and connected.

Those reports indicate, that the sources are coming from units of Luftgaukommando 12 in 1939/40. All locations in the area are of a responsibility of LGK 12.

It's indeed very thrilling now, if this interception on September 30th, 1939 was a result of one of the first radar detection or caused other reasons. On my opinion, only researches at BM-BA at Freiburg can clear the question without doubts.

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

SES & Horst,

Thanx for your helpful comments. The French article was particularly helpful, especially in light of the info from Larry de Zeng. I'm thinking that this all adds up to a very important historical event, probably the first major successful German radar-guided interception of the war, and thus in the history of radar in general. This is something that I never suspected when I started researching this combat.

Does anyone have any photos of this early radar site, or one like it, to see what the equipment looked like?

Now if we can only find some photos of the wrecked Fairey Battles from this incident, or other photos of 150 SQ a/c from 09.39, so that I can do a profile of one of the British a/c involved. Peter Cornwell has suggested the general appearance of this a/c, but notes that this info is still highly speculative: "Lack of consistency in the application of markings on Battles of the period make it dangerous to speculate but probably no fin flash & serial repeated on the rudder etc. Also possibly all black undersurfaces with large white serials on each wing."

Thanx again for the help!!

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

For description of Freya please see:
http://www.gyges.dk/luftwaffe_radartypes.htm
and
http://www.gyges.dk/luftwaffe_radart...ecognition.htm
the early Freyas were very similar to the FuMG 450.
I have never seen a picture of these early sites only the equipment.
bregds
SES

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

About same 25 years ago I was able to talk with an former member with 7. Kompanie Luftgau-Nachrichten-Rgt. 12. They work together with the FLUKO Trier (my hometown). The FLUKO sent the information about incoming emeny Airplanes via telephone to the LGK Wiesbaden & to the Jagdgeschwader 53.
The FLUKO was in the cellars from Friedrich-Wilhelm-Gymnasium.
h.

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Hi,
Thank you for the info, which is consistent with that in the link I posted above.
bregds
SES

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Hans and SES,

This is very helpful information in reconstructing the mission that day. Thanx to both of you. This establishes the command chain for passing the radar info forward to the fighter unit which was scrambled and intercepted the incoming British formation.

What does the abbreviation FLUKO mean?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Fluko(s) and Fluwa(s)

Fluko = Flugwachkommando = observer post detachment
Fluwa = Flugwache = observer post

IIRC, each Fluko subordinated a number of Flugwache. The Fluko was usually in a city, town or command and control bunker, while a Flugwache consisted of one or two people with binoculars posted on a rooftop or nearby hill to keep on the lookout for approaching aircraft. The Flugwache generally reported by telephone while the Fluko were equipped with both telephone and radio capability.

Horst and SES might be able to fine tune these definitions with some additional information.

Re: Need info on what this signals? unit did? 7./Lg.Nachr.Rgt.12
 

Larry,

Thanx. This system is obviously the German parallel to the British Observer Corps. The latter is well known from its roll in the Battle of Britain, but the German system is less well known, at least to me.

Exactly how this system worked and the roll it played on Sept 30, 1939, is now becoming much clearer to me, thanks to the information all of you have provided on this subject.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Director