Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Can someone identify this aircraft, reportedly shot down over France (according to the eBay seller):
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/586-Foto-FRAN...bE!~~60_12.JPG

Thanks,

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Maybe one of the Potez 6xx series of aircraft?

http://www.swannysmodels.com/images/...z631/page5.jpg

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

I would suggest a Leo45...

GC

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

I am not convinced it's a French aircraft after all.
It can also be a Soviet one (Petlyakov Pe-2?).

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

I am close to opt on a PE-2 series, I need a higher resolution photos based on which I can finally identify the type
though according the Nr 4 painted on mid section is definitely a VVS twin rudder aircraft

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

It 's not a Po 63 or LeO 451, these two type a/c have a stabilizer with dihedral. the graphics of 4 is not french.
I think it's not a Pe2, Pe 2 had the stabilizer with dihedral and a median position.
On the picture, the stabilizer has not dihedral and it is on the top of fuselage.

Waroff

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

If is none of the above what's your choice then ? fact is , it was VVS aircraft and with great certainty a twin engined one.

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Anyone entertaining the possibility that it's a Bf110? Is that splinter pattern camouflage on the wing?
...geoff

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

The tail is too rounded for an Bf 110.

The leading edge of fin is straight, stabilizer has no dihedral, the ratio A/B of fin with the stabilizer, perhaps the a/c is a Do 17

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Not arguing with you, just trying to understand which area you're talking about. Do you refer to the tail fin.....or the base/tip of the fuselage? If you are talking about the base of the fuselage - remember it's almost a 3/4 angle, not in profile, so you see (possibly) more of a rounded shape.....if this is a Bf110.

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

excuse my bad english!

"a tail too rounded", I tell about the end of under fuselage (between tailwheel and tip fuselage, where I have surligne in red)

I find a picture whith a similar angle, for compare

the fin of Bf 110 have another ratio top/bottom
and in the foreground, if it is the engine cowling of this a/c, this a/c had radial engine.
These are the reasons why I think it's Do 17

but the "4"? it seems not a german marking,

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Nothing wrong with your English! I think these discussions are always made more difficult in the need to type an answer, and the time lag required to answer simple questions. Much easier in the pub, over a drink, and a lot of finger tapping on photos. ;)

I think your proportion method is a good start, though I'd be careful using it alone (without other cross referencing) on crashed aircraft in general...with possible crushing of structure. Your explanation of a Dornier 17 (perhaps one of the early E or F 'flying pencils) seems quite reasonable.
I have seen German '4' as in the closed 4 but with a small line/space/demarkation between the < and the top of the |, perhaps a stencil connection, (though I admit to being a novice with most things Luftwaffe). I can't quite make out the finer detail of the 4 in the photo.

I'm happy to leave it to the 'experten' to decide.

Regards,
...geoff

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Hello,

Hoping not to set my grain of salt and by-passing this thread, BUT I found a match between the wrecked tail and the tail end of an allegated Do 17 crashed in a forest. I apologize beforehand about the awful quality of the attached picture. A Do 17 is thus possible.

By the way, this Do 17 (..+UK) crashed in the large forested area of Gedinne (in Belgium but near the French border). Obviously, I have any other info. Any ID is welcome.

Sorry to X-cross this thread.

Best regards

ClinA-78 (hé Franck, digging also pictures ;))

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

The style of the "4" would make me think of a Yougoslavian aircraft.

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

100% disagree, accoring the camo and the " 4 " that's by no means a German but VVS aircraft...at this point hard to judge if PE-2 or an other twin rudder acft

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

At this point in time if D.Bernard would post a btter resolution shot, that would make the ID easier.Again thats a VVS aircraft .

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Maybe a Yugoslav Do 17? (Pe-2's horizontal stabilizer was not straight, it was a bit "V" shape.)

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

but not Pe 2 or any ac twin rudder who had dihedral

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

The Soviets had several developments of twin non dihedral rudders short and medium range bombers
and recon acfts before and during the war , with no high resolution is hard to really determine,
this could well match the TU-2 ,less probable a YAK-4 or maybe one of their other developmens etc.
The missing front section makes the ID more harder.

Undoubtedly it's a VVS or VMF aircraft and location is not France.

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

i think dornier 17 is a good possibility...

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

infact scrap that i think its a dornier 217 lads

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Two very definite statements without any explanation for either.

I'm pretty sure that it isn't a Do217, because (I think) it lacks both the airbrake/airbrake stub mounting or the fairly sharp keel - although the photo isn't clear in this area. It may be a Do17 - the twin leg mounting for the undercarriage rules out a Bf110. The number does rather rule out any Luftwaffe combat type - somewhere I have the book on Yugoslavian Do17s so I shall have to dig it out to see if I can find a match. Edit: OK, the Yugoslavian Do17s did not carry such numbers either, and the camouflage went halfway down the fuselage. So it isn't one of their's.

What reasons are there that it absolutely has to be VVS? It does look it, yes, but no particular type appears to fit....

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Graham

Did you review all TU-2 details ? the camo paint and nr 4 style definitely fits the VVS or VMF planes , the shape of that wreck is very close to this of TU-2 tail section...is not a Yugoslavian or a ME-110

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

I have difficulty to see the same shape on the Tu-2

And the "4", is really a four, or a cross with a tear in the skin that gives the impression of number four?

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

is it not possible that this is a captured german aircraft painted up with allied markings ?

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

The ventral curve at the tip of the tail is clearly different from that of a Tu2, showing a greater radius, and the Tu2 also has a dihedral tailplane. The tip of the tail does indeed look like that of a Do17: or at least, more like that than any other suggestion so far.

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Graham and group, this debate may last forever unless Mr Bernard may enlighten us with a better resolution which at this point he may not have. The TU-2 yes, some models were with dihedrals elevators and some without, though the paint and the " 4 " matches with great certainty the VVS. Attached the YAK-2. One last thing, on the left corner right of the wings seems to be the engine intake nacelle...maybe someone can use this as further ID reference,

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Yak 2
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colo...-1941/yak2.jpg

and no one of these russian a/c had a tail skid under fuselage (just behind the soldier sitting on the tail)

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

I've just been discussing Tu2 production variations on the VVS website http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/ but at no time did the discussion bring out any difference in the dihedral of the tailplanes. A quick look back at photos show this was not present on any of the major variants right back to the original prototypes. I believe you are in error there.

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

I have a book called Soviet Air Power in WW2, some 500 pages....do you by chance have this book ? all their developments are discussed in there.

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Yes, I do. Also Putnam's Tupolev Aircraft, and Gordon's book on Russian WW2 bombers. No tailplanes with dihedral on Tu2s. At some risk of straying, I'd point out that all of the Russian twin-fin designs operated by the VVS in WW2 appear to have had dihedral tailplanes, a design feature that possibly is as "standardised" as their overall configuration and wing planforms.

I should add that the thread mentioned above brought out details that are not covered in any of the texts above, although not relevant to this discussion.

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

The Bulgarian Air Force used a number of Dornier Do17M (and possibly K) aircraft. A number of decal makers have produced colour schemes with the (what I call) splinter camouflage pattern - see link below.

http://img.1001modelkits.com/22740-1...ecals-7247.jpg

If we ignore the actual squadron/aircraft codes of the example in the decal web-page, and look at the distinctive pattern of the wing, and the characteristic light coloured rear fuselage sides. Does this fit the pattern on Denes' photo?

Regards,
...geoff

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Finally, I managed to make a decent scan. Hope it helps:

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/305/zhz7.jpg

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

The code 4N+ suggests Luftwaffe Do 17, and remains of radial engine cowlings,
and remains of (modified?) pre-war scheme.
All three staffeln of (F)/22 flew against France,
using the Do 17 P or M (or mixture of them in 3. Sptaffeln).
Fairly certain this is in wrong section of TOCH! (this is Luftwaffe).
-ed

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

But didn't it start out as a French aircraft

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

nah, already suggested this is Do 17 in post #8.
Else there are too many cooks stirring the pot :-)

I am still fairly certain this is Do 17 from (F)/22, code 4N+
the 4 and the N are plainly visible, the N being slightly charred by fire.
Anyways when this photo was taken is summertime, likely long time since it was downed, and that likely expaints the stripped and looted appearance. I bet there lurks another picture(s) of it out there. Photo collectors lease look in your files marked Luftwaffe, 1939/1940, Do 17, (F)/22 ... etc.

I also remember Do 17 camo with Light Blue extending upwards on fuselage, then whats so radical with suggesting lighter patces be parts of pre war colour RLM 02 ?????

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

from the beginning I still say it is a Do 17, watching the details of the tail. This scan removes any doubt

Re: Aircraft I/D required (redux)
 

Yes, still and ever a Do 17.
Watch the circular engine bearer/mounting between the men at left.
Moreover German soldiers look more or less hopeless!

ClinA-78