Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Hi All,
I have a question regarding a possible connection between the Summarische Verlustmeldungen (Summary losses) and the Flugzeugsbestand und Bewegungsmeldung.

Could one asume the losses reported in the summary losses would be reflected by the numbers listed as Abgang (Departure) either through enemy action or without enemy action?

Does anyone know if a loss for example on the 30. June that was reported on 04. Jul would be part of the Bestandsmeldungen of June or July?

I have attempted this with a couple of units but the numbers are almost never the same.

Has anybody thought about this or come accross a possible link?

I know those are deep questions. Any help is apprechiated.

Frohe Weihnacht from California to ALL,

Norbert

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

I have noticed several cases where the end of month total doesn't quite match the corresponding 10-daily order or battle figure.

Anyone with an office job will have run into this kind of thing - the example you quote would probably depend on whether the report for 30 June was compiled that day or on 1 July.

Ultra messages sometimes give day-by-day strength/serviceability for units on a given airfield that go up and down apparently at random - I guess it was just a case of faults developing and being fixed and that the picture could change almost by the hour.

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Thank you Nick,
I guess this is what makes the whole research so interesting and exciting. There are all those variables no one can explain. Well maybe a third source could narrow the search for acuracy down. Only if there was a third source.

Thanks for your reply. I will continue searching,

Norbert

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Hi, Norbert & Nick.

I have also tried to do this for a few units. And as Nick said, the correspondance between the Bestandsmeldungen and Summarische Verlustemeldungen might seem poor....

What we do have to do here however is to establish:

1. Who did the different tasks with regards to these two important document sets? (The Summarische Verlustemeldungen were made at the Genst.Gen.Qu. statistics department)

2. When did the month close (and start) for the Bestandsmeldungen?

3. (most important in my opinion) What would happen to make an aircraft to be counted as an Abgang in the Bestandsmeldungen, and what would not? An aircraft damaged 10% and listed in the Summarische Verlustemeldungen would in my opinion not be counted as an Abgang as long as the unit did not have to transfer the aircraft to another unit for repairs to be carried out (I have examples in documents from repair facilities were some aircraft are stated with HALTER given as the original unit while others are 'transferred' and the HALTER given as the repairshop itself (or a Luftfeldpark or similar). And to complicate things further - it is not necessarily certain that the different units technical personnel acted consistent on this matter, even if the routines were clear!

Thus - depending on the circumstances (and probably also which airfield the unit currently operated from with regards to facilities available there) - an aircraft could be in both the Abgang list and in the Summarische Verlustemeldungen, but it could also be only in the Summarische Verlustemeldungen list....

The only real intriguing question is then - if there are a lot of aircraft in the Abgang of the Bestandsmeldungen - but no aircraft lost according to the Summarische Verlustemeldungen.....

So to try to conclude as of now (we will probably never be able to establish more than a good theory on this - even with the documents on the way to me know which should contain the instructions for loss reporting in the WWII Luftwaffe):

As long as the number of aircraft reported in the Summarsiche Verlustemeldungen are larger than the number in the Abgang in the Bestandsmeldungen - no worry. If the situation is vice versa - look to see if the unit could have been reporting as several separate ones - if not - probably a clerical error....

Regards, and a Merry Christmas to all of You!

Andreas

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Hi Andreas,
thank you for your reply. I guess I need to pick a trial unit and try to get to the bottom of this.

The other fact that does not help is when a unit was redesignated, absorbed or disbanded. There is always this "fluid" time that one has no ideas how long it may have lasted.

It gets even more confusing when you have a Flugbuch from a pilot who was with NSGr. 20 and the seal used to certify his hours says III.(Nacht)/KG 51.

Hopefully Andreas you may be able to share the possible findings from your BA documents regarding loss reporting.

Thanks again,

Norbert

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

If you are referring to Flugbuch Hptm. Hans-Hermann Müller its easy to solve! III/KG 51 Ergänzungsstaffel (Nacht) was in 1945 renamed 14(N)/SG 151, stationed in Vaerlöse/DK. All his flights in Vaerlöse was with SG 151, certified with seal KG 51. He only had one flight with NSGr. 20.

Junker

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Thank you Junker,
this is the one.

Did you have more info than just his Flugbuch to make this connection? I'm curious to know. Because I certainly did not see this link.

Thanks,

Norbert

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

First there is Müller himself! I had contact with him over a long time. He stated that his flights in Vaerlöse were training-flights, only flying 1 operational sortie with NSGr. 20. His last two flight was only confirmed by signature, not by a seal! Second NSGr. 20 never went to Denmark, and 14(N)/SG 151 were still here at wars end. Also according to Carlsen/Meyer 14/SG 151 were formed from ErgSt./III/KG 51! It had nothing to do with NSGr. 20. Hope this helps to clarify things.

Junker

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Thank you so much this really helped a lot. I can see clearly now.

Regards,

Norbert

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Well, and how about aircraft that were send for repairs but returned within a month of question?
My (and friends') research on the losses of the Polish AF indicates, that it is not possible to establish a complete list of losses based on such documents like HQ summaries. That said, all the published loss lists must be taken with a certain grain of salt.

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Thank you Franek,
you are correct. I was just hoping someone had the golden egg. I just need to be more patient and keep on putting those small pieces together. All I wanted to do is establish a connection between the Summarische Verlustmeldungen and the Bestandsmeldungen. But as you all stated I'm going to take all with a big grain of salt.

Thanks again for all who responded to my post.

Norbert

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Norbert
I think there should be a distribution list as well as a date of submitting on headers of original monthly reports. This possibly allow some conclusions but you should not overestimate value of those documents. They were not primary ones, filed based on other documents and prone for every kind of error, including typos. A comparison of monthly reports vs GQ6 losses of JG26 in the Spring 1942 indicates that there are errors in subvariants, classification of losses and ommisions. Statistical analysis leads to other, surprising conclusions.
It seems research on the German aircraft is not up to RAF research standard. What is needed, is a careful research on every aircraft and every sortie based on every available document and not only few surviving KTBs or GQ6 lists.
Cheers

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Franek,
I'm well aware of all those shortcommings. But since there are only the Summarische Verlustmeldungen and the Bestandsmeldungen especially for the year 1944, I was hoping to establish a connection. I suffered through many GQ6 loss reports so I known exactly what you are talking about. Especially when you come accross pages of pages of corrections and additions to previous reports. This is what makes it truly a puzzle. I'm presently working through Summarische loss lists and since they do not give the type of aircraft nor the pilot or crew info I was just fishing for a possible connection to get at least an aircraft in there.

Thanks again for the information. I will continue with my puzzle

Regards,

Norbert

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Norbert
I was not in any way going to discourage you, but I am afraid it is not possible to find links between two, inaccurate by definition documents. I would consider monthly summaries only as indicative of number of losses but not definite source of them.
Drop me your email on PM, please, so I will send you next week some interesting statistical observations.

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Franek,
followed your request, check your PM.
In the last two days I copiled the Summarische Verlustmeldungen from all NSGr. and compared them with the Bewegungsmeldungen. You are correct not a lot in common. At times during a bombing raid a unit looses 10 aircraft and there is no mention during the month in question or the previous and following month. In some instances I was able to make a connection as to the type of aircraft lost but this was the extent of it. I picked the NSGr. since they did not have that many losses and the data was more manageable.

I also compared the data I have with what Nick Beale has in his book about NSGr. 9 and there are differences here too.

The search continues......

Reagrds,

Norbert

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Hello Norbert.

I just resently has come back to continue my research, specificly on NSGr.11 in the period from December 43 to October 44. I'm searching for loss lists, plane addings etc. etc. for the unit for the time mentioned.

I hope you can help me or direct me to sources available.

Regards

Orla

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

I am looking for information on Hans-Hermann Müller, I know he passed away, but do not have any knowledge of him. His age, birthday and last address ? What date and year did he pass away ? I am trying to find his grave somewhere in Germany. Do you think you could help ?
Nikolaj Bojer

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Oblt Hans-Hermann Müller was in 10 NJG3, first at Ålborg West and then Grove.
Do anyone have knowledge of what happened to him

Re: Summarische Verlustmeldung vs. Bestandsmeldung
 

Yes he survived the war. Later retired as LtCol. from the Bundesluftwaffe.

Junker