Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

Hi,
Did Hptm. Leban claim any victories in JG 2? When did he go to JG 77?
BR
Dmitry

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

Dmitry, I just looked through Eric Mombeek's volume 1 of JG 2 1939-1940. I didn't see any mention of Karl Leban in that volume.

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

According to Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries:

LEBAN, Karl. (DOB: 27.11.08 in Goraida). 06.41 Hptm., in 5./JG 2. 28.07.41 Hptm. in 6./JG 77, KIA – Bf 109 E-7 (Yellow 6) crashed 10 km W of Zerby (Serby?) following air combat. Credited with 3 victories.

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

I have these victories on my database:

6.7.41. SB-2
13.7.41/Ca.0930hrs. Fighter (I-16 or MiG-3)
25.7.41/1500hrs. I-16

Hope that helps

Nick

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

In J.Prien's JFV 6/II - only one claim.

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

I am puzzled by the great difference between Prien's JG 77 books and his JFV 6/II

In the JG 77 Teil 2, Karl Leban is credited with three victories, but in JFV 6/II only with one.

Looking at just July 6th there are far more discrepancies.

JG 77 Teil 2 JFV 6/II
Lt Zuzic : I-16 x 2 Not listed
Ofw Ertel: I-16 Not listed
Fw Schmidt: I-16 Fw Rudolf Schmidt: I-16
Uffz Bochmann; I-16 Uffz Horst Bochmann: ZKB-19
Not listed Oblt Erich Friedrich: I-16
Not listed Hptm Anton Mader; I-16
Not listed Lt Franz Hrdlicka: I-16

Lt Schwanecke: DB-3 Not listed
Fw Schmidt: DB-3 Fw Rudolf Schmidt: MiG-3
Not listed Oblt Erich Friedrich: MiG-3

Uffz Bochmann:SB-2x2 Not listed
Hptm Leban: SB-2 Not listed
Lt Engelhardt: SB-2 Not listed
Not listed Lt Bruno Siekmann: SB-2
Not listed Oblt Walter Höckner: SB-2
Not listed Uffz Ludwig Fröba: I-16
Not listed NN: SB-2

Are the remaining records that hard to interpret that in 1993 we have one version and in 2003 basically a totally different one (Only 3 victories correlate!)?

Cheers
Stig

Sorry, the listings come out very strange since it is not possible to tabulate information above. Hope it is interpretable, otherwise check the two volumes

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

Claims in JG77 books are mostly assumption. JFV series founded on more reliable sources.

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

Hmmm

I can hardly believe Jochen Prien based his four volume JG 77 books on guessworks. There must be more to it than that.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

Stig, you are correct. I can assure you that Dr. Prien based his JG 77 series on solid information. Since that publication, for the JV series, more information may have come to light in the form of KTBs, FBs, etc., as well as Ultra, but the base information in the original series will be pretty good.

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

I must come in "defense" of Dmitry Volodin, I don't think he meant that Dr.Prien wrote details based on assumptions ,because is not in the nature of Germans to write or do superficial stuff, what he meant is and most probably he's correct , that the JG 77 diaries used by Prien containing errors ....and I confirm that these errors definitely exist ( I have these volumes too) ...also many of the JG52, JG3, JG77, JG51 etc victories were exagerated some even fabricated by the Germans towards awards. Further more even WWII aces memoirs containing lots of errors such as those of Hartmann, Rall, Rudel , Pokrishkin, Retchkalov,Koshedub, Yevstigneev, and those of 15th AF etc

Same pattern exists on books written about Russian VVS and by Russian such Chazanov, Morozov, Kharlenko /Bernard , Medved, Solonin,Bergstroem etc etc and those about 15th Air Force BG' and FG's in WWII (my area of research ) and there is no 100% accuracy in anything dealing with WWII.

However all these books plus minus errors are a great source of information for the present generation and generations to come, period.

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

AFAIK, JG 77 books were published long before the discovering of well-known OKL Fighter Claims on microfilms in BA-MA.

Re: Hptm. Karl Leban claims
 

As I remember correctly JG77 claims based on day's staffel claims quantity but the names of claimants had not been known at that time. This I had in mind as 'assumptions'.