what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Good morning all,

The "Roma" was sunk in 9/43 by Leutnant Deumling with a flying bomb launched from a Do217K.

I look the exact Wnr of this Do217.

Flugzeug Classic of January 2011 explains very well the story and shows a profile and a picture of the Do217 with markings "6N + HR" :

was this machine 6N+HR really the one flown by Deumling this day ?

and what was his Wnr ?

Ideally, a copy of the relevant page of Deumling logbook's would be perfect...

You 'll make cry for joy if you find this page for me, and if it shows Wnr 6749..

Thanks a lot in advance;

GC

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

As far as I know, there was no Do 217 with WNr. 6749. However, Do 217K-3, 4749 was 6N+HR. It was shot down in 1944-06-15 bei Cherbourg when operated by 9./KG 100.

Matti

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

As you know, without his WkNr, you cannot say for certain it was the same as your Do 217. I should also say that nearly 10 months between the Roma & your loss is a long time operationally speaking. Bon chance!

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Did Deumling bring out a book about the sinking of the Roma ?

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Brian: yes she did write a book (in German) published in 2008
"41 seconds before the impact - bomber pilot with KG 100 Wiking with the secret flying bomb Fritz X"

but I don't have this book.

If some nice owner of this book would be kind enough to check if he mentions the Wnr he flew that very day ?


Chris: you are right, 10 months is long, but who knows ? I wish I find a confirmation of the Wnr on the wreck...

Best regards to all of you;

Gilles

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

No confirmation of the Wk Nr but it you go to http://www.wiki.luftwaffedata.co.uk/...itle=Downloads and download from the link "Missiles against the Roma" you will find three photos of the Roma under attack plus an article about the attack.(This from an old Flying Review from 1968).

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

I wish I find a confirmation of the Wnr on the wreck...

,,,???

The serial of the missile they could find in the wreck of the Roma ??


Rémi

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Is there any clarification on who sunk the Roma according to some the Roma was hit first at 1537hrs and then again at either 1550 or 1602hrs
The Ulf Balke KG100 history shows strike photos taken at 1540hrs with the name Uffz. Degan from the crew of Ofw.Kurt Steinborn. Andy's link to the Flying Review article has at 1540hrs the bomb from the Do217 flown by Ltn Schmetz with B. Uffz Oskar Hurn hit the Roma. Was not Jope credited as well with the sinking, I believe from a Falk-eins link Deumling was on his first mission and received no credit for the sinking.

Deumling does NOT claim he sank the Roma!
 

In his book he states clearly, and repeatedly, that his crew (observer Uoffz. Penz) achieved the FIRST hit on Roma. Deumling credits the fatal second hit to Uoffz. Eugen Degan, observer in Oberfeldwebel Kurt Steinborn's crew.
Unfortunately, there is no mention of either WNr. or code of either plane.
Hth, Richard

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

I had an answer from Balke himself in which he precises that he cannot answer this question (Wnr that sank the Roma) because the Wnr of the aircraft were noted only when the aircraft were lost. In some units, the "Kennzeichen" registration were sometimes noted, but unfortunately, in our case, this document has been lost.

So, I fear my question will remain open forever...

Thanks for your efforts.

GC

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

I have attempted to compile a list of all III./KG 100 Do 217K-2 aircraft. When I get home in a few days I will check my files to see if I have this information.

Marty

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

If anyone wanted to search TNA HW5/339 through to (maybe) HW5/442 there might be some clues — deciphered take-off or landing reports, even a report of the operation.

Another possible source would be HW13/36, German Naval Air Activity (GNA) Vol. X (July 1 1943-Sept 30 1943). I have looked briefly at a couple of later volumes in the series and they synthesise ULTRA and radio monitoring information.

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

I notice something on this famous picture of Deumling in front of his Do217:

although there are no markings that would allow an individual recognition of the aircraft, there is a strange triangle, above Deumling, just before the plexiglass;

It reminds me of the fuel octane indexes trianle ("87") you could see on the Bf109 but obviously, at this place, it is not such marking.

Any idea ??

GC

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Gilles, it is most probably a fuel octane triangle or similer. The fuel octane triangle was in a similer location on the He111. An ideal position for quick recognition whilst standing on the ground.

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

thanks Clint.
GC

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Any ULTRA expert around that would be able to try the idea of Nick Beale here above ??

"If anyone wanted to search TNA HW5/339 through to (maybe) HW5/442 there might be some clues — deciphered take-off or landing reports, even a report of the operation.

Another possible source would be HW13/36, German Naval Air Activity (GNA) Vol. X (July 1 1943-Sept 30 1943). I have looked briefly at a couple of later volumes in the series and they synthesise ULTRA and radio monitoring information."

thanks...

GC

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Meanwhile, an ULTRA from July 1944 for Marty:

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Very interesting.. Thanks

But I wonder what this could mean:

" no 300% 40371 FROM A.O. FOR BOMBERS DEPT FK... "

Good evening

GC

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

It means "[Message] No. 340371 from General der Kampfflieger, Department for Flugkörper [guided weapons]."

"C%4" means that there were fair indications that the number was 4 - the British were not certain. "B%" meant "strong indications" and "D%" was "slight indications."

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Very interesting, especially since it was just a month later that the Luftwaffe for all intents and purposes terminated anti-ship glide-bomb operations.

Thanks, Nick.

PS: At some point I need to get Ultra Luftwaffe decrypts for 1940 and 1941. I am unaware of any electronic repository for these records -- is that also your understanding?

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Don't know a thing about '41, I'm afraid. Everything from 1940 (AFAIK) is on paper in files HW5/1 - HW5/7. There is very little material in the first of these until the invasion of Norway, for which there seemed to be quite a lot of Luftwaffe material (I didn't take notes). They only broke into Western Front traffic as of the third week of May, so the early parts of the Blitzkrieg aren't covered.

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Thanks. Thought so. I'll have to go to Kew and sit through all of the HW5 files from 1 to (I think about) 48. Should be a fun week.

Marty

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

That's why the Gods sent us digital cameras and big memory cards! Good luck with whatever you're after.

Re: what is the Wnr of the Do217 that sank the Roma in September 1943 ?
 

Hi All,

to continue this exchange, and to further complete the ULTRA report shown by Nick, I find interesting to share with you the plate of the FUG203 from the Do217 Wnr 4749 that we found last week-end.

with these two images (report and plate), you can see the two armies fighting: gliding weapons, jamming FUG203, etc..

GC