109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

The 109E-4 of 5./JG 3 St.Kap. Oblt. Herbert Kijewski was photographed during 8.40 carrying an unknown nickname ending in an "a" on the nose (See. Prien JFV Vol. 4/1 P.205, Photo #168). I believe that this is W.Nr. 1443 that crash-landed with 75% damage at Marquise, France, on 2.9.40 after an air battle over the channel, probably with Kijewski piloting. Does anyone have photos of this plane after it crash-landed, or know the nickname that this aircraft carried during this period? It could be the name of his wife or girlfriend. It probably would have had two victory tabs on the fin above the W.Nr.

Happy Holidays to all.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Larry,

the name should be ERIKA, this being the Christian name of his wife.

Merry Christmas

Jochen Prien

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Merry Christmas Larry, Jochen et all

Just out of curiosity, why do you attach WNr 1443 with Kijewski?
Cannot find anything in Jochen's book or anywhere else for that matter, so what do you have up your sleeve?? http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon7.gif

Another interesting point from that date is that Jochen in HIS book states that WNr 5130 from 4./JG 3 was slightly damaged while Les Pertes de Chasse de Jour Allemande en France Vol 1 claims this to have been WNr 5136 (although they recognise that Prien states 5130). Anyone wishing to stick his neck out over this one? A sloppy 6 easily becomes a 0, AND vice versa!!....

Cheers
Stig

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

I have WNr. 5136 as well with a note that Prien refers to it as 5130. That's the way I read from the Gen.Qu. microfilm.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Possibly it was verified against movement card, accident card, loss report or authorisation book.
It would be interesting to learn if Kijewski was at the controls of 1443 on 2 September. JG3 was likely bounced by 303 Sqn.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Gentlemen,

Thanks for your responses. Dr. Prien has cleared up one of the two mysteries here from the photos of Oblt Kijewski's 109E. After studying the photos further, I'm convinced that the name on the clowling is "Erika," the name of Kajewski's wife.

The association of Oblt. Kijewski's a/c with W.Nr. 1443 is through an unpublished photograph that I've seen. The same "Black 1" as in the JFV reference cited is shown in this photo after crash-landing with considerable damage to at least one wing. The foliage is still full and the aircraft had white/yellow wingtips and rudder, making the incident sometime from about the end of August, 1940, until roughtly the end of the Battle of Britain. It carried a cannon in the wings and had the late-style cockpit canopy, so it was either an E-3 or an E-4. The overspray camouflage pattern is probably a factory finish, and roughly matches the pattern found on "Black 8" of the same unit, which has been much photographed, indicating that they may have come from the same production batch. "Black 8" is known to have been W.Nr. 1464, and, in fact, was shot into the sea on September 5th. By a process of elimination, the only aircraft that fits all these parameters, including being an E-4, that was lost by 5./JG 3 during that particular period to a crash landing with considerable damage was 1443. If 1443 and "Black 1" are the same aircraft, it would be likely, but not certain, that Oblt. Kijewski was the pilot during the 2.9.40 incident.

Since many crash-landings during the period were photographed a number of times and from different angles, I am hoping that someone else has a photo of this aircraft, perhaps showing the tail more clearly and the W.Nr. and/or victory tabs to help confirm the identification as W.Nr. 1443. The pertinent part of the tail is not visible due to foliage in the photo that I've seen.

I hope that someone can help confirm my tentative identification.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hi Gentleman,
Just as a follow up the above thread, and refering to a/c of 5/JG3.
On the opposite page to Kijewski's Black 1+- there is a photo of a ME109E with the nickname! Schluck= Specht, this a/c also shows part of its kennziffern which maybe the top stroke of a 7? Can anybody confirm this a/c's identity, and also what the nickname translates to.

Also, W.Nr 1464 Black 8+- lost on the 5.9.40 is photographed below Oblt.Kijewski's a/c, is captioned with 2 kills. Anybody got any ideas to the
pilot of this Emil! He was lucky to be rescued by the German Seenotdienst
Air Sea Rescue unit.
Any help most appreciated.
Rgs,
Steve.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Robert Szoltyk has recently sent me a photo of a 109F from 5./JG 3 that has the same "Schluck+Specht" nickname as the photo Steve asked about. This IS a "Black 7." Reviewing the evidence and the large number of photos of other, known a/c from this Staffel during the Battle of Britain period, I'd say that the 109E with this nickname is almost certainly "Black 7," which Robert informs me means "Gas Gulper," or in more colloquial American English "Gas Guzzler." He thinks the photo shows a Lt., which would be a clue because it has to be someone who was still flying in the Staffel after the unit converted to the 109F in 1941 either as a Lt. or an Oblt.

So, we still need an a/c number for "Gretel" and pilot IDs for many of the ten or so 109Es for which photos exist from this Staffel during the Battle of Britain period.

Also, there appear to be at least four 109Es in 5./JG 3 that carried the nickname SCHNAUZL, after Uffz. Josef Heinzeller's pet terrier. Has anyone ever actually determined which one Heinzeller actually flew?

And finally, despite the appearance of many photos in recent months of Bf-109E "Black 8" from 5./JG 3 on eBay, and in Prien's Volume 4/II, I still can't determine if there is a nickname or a SCHNAUZL insignia on the cowling. Can anyone confirm this one way or the other? Has anyone identified the pilot of this aircraft, shown in several of those photos?

Anyone have photos of any other nicknames on the cowlings of 5./JG 3 109Es during 1940?

Thanks to all for contributing to this discussion.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Larry,

the name of the pilot of the Bf 109 E and F with the nick name "Schluck=Specht" is Buddenhagen; since I am at the office right now I can't check the Christian name but I seem to remember it was Horst. He was killed early in the Russian Campaign in 1941.

The German word Schluckspecht is entirely colloquial and describes a person who likes the booze and takes a lot of it.

Hope this helps.

Jochen

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hello Gentlemen,

the interesting fact of "Schluck=Specht" is that we have at least 3 different
"Schluck-Specht". The first one was "Schluck=Specht", then we have
"2. Schluck=Specht" and "3. Schluck=Specht"! Maybe this was the plane
Buddenhagen flew as he was killed at 25/Jun/1941. "Horst" the right name.

Maybe the "Black 8" is the well known "Gretel" but I'm not really sure.
I saw a photo group of "Black 8" and at some photos you could see the
nickname "Gretel". I hope Mr. Prien can help here.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hi Larry and Jochen,
Many many thanks for your views and comments regarding the Emils of 5/JG3. and for the translation of Schluck = Specht!
We seem also now, to be able to confirm that Horst Buddenhagen was the pilot of Black 7+-, "What a great research tool TOCH is"

The identity of "Gretel" remains to be clarified W.Nr and kzf nbr! and also the pilot of Black 8+- with 2kills. The 4 a/c of Uffz. Josef Heinzeller's "schnauzl" ketten, needs further informtion finding, also the missing pilots.

Black 9+- Heinzeller's ? W.Nr ?
Black 10+- ? W.Nr ?
Black 11+- Uffz. Fritz Mias W.Nr 1155
Black 14+- ? W.Nr ?

What a great thread this as turned out to be, further imput please gentleman!!!

Rgs,
Steve.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hi,


I think that the black "10" was flown by Lt.Max-Bruno Fischer. It probably has a personal emblem beneth the canopy (something black on white disc) and it is similar to Fischer`s personal emblem seen on his F-2 black 9 in Russia and F-4 black <- in San Pietro. Could anyone confirm this?


Regards

Robert

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Robert et.al.,

For several years I've suspected that Lt. Max-Bruno Fischer was the pilot of "Black 10" with 5./JG 3 during the summer of 1940. This is based on the unusual personal insignia that appears later in 1941-2 on his aircraft with II./JG 3, that first appeared in Dr. Prien's book on II./JG 3. A part of a similar insignia seems to appear on "Black 10" (the large white disc) in some of the background photos dating to the Battle of Britain period in the Prien volumes. We need someone who can confirm that Lt. Fischer was, in fact, assigned and flew with 5./JG 3 during the summer of 1940. He scored no victories during this period and was in no recorded aircraft loss incidents, so that info will have to come from somewhere else. Who can solve this mystery? Robert, I was about to post this question and you beat me to it.

Thanks

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hello Steve,

now I have some more informatins of "Black 8". I own a detailed photo
of the tail (W.Nr. 1464). The 2 kills are dated with 14.6. and 17.6.
(1940). The only one pilot could be Uffz. Fritz Mias! He had an 100%
damage at 19.6.40. Could it be that he survived and flew the 1464 later?
Was the "Black 11" his first 109?

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hello all,

Leutnant Max-Bruno Fischer of II./JG 3 was posted to this unit towards the end of 1941; first he flew with 4./JG 3 in the Med. and afterwards became Adjutant of II./JG 3 till August 44. So he did not fly with II./JG 3 in 1940. He also did not fly in the 5./JG 3 during the war.

Best wishes,
Rob

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Gentlemen,

One possible way to determine the pilot of the 5. Staffel a/c during the Battle of Britain nicknamed "Gretel" would be to check the NVM of pilots known to have served with the unit during that period if they were later killed. If "Gretel" is listed as the name of one of these men's wives (next of kin), then we know who probably flew it. That is how Jochen Prien knew that Kijewski's aircraft nickname was probably "Erika." However, this assumes that the name was not that of a girlfriend, not later married to the pilot, or even the name of a daughter.

Does anyone know of any surviving logbooks from any of the pilots known to have flown with 5./JG 3 during 1939-40?

Thanks

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hi,


Uffz.Alfred Heckmann black 6? Who can confirm this?
@ Rob and what about the photo No.063 in J.Prien "Die Jagdfliegerverbaende...Teil 6/I" - it shows the mount of Lt.Max-Bruno Fischer black 9 from 5/JG3 in summer 1941 in Russia?

Regards

Robert

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hi Robert,

Yes I have seen that picture - it has Fischer´s personal insignia, but Max-Bruno Fischer was not with II./JG 3 during the first Russia campaign - 22 June till Nov 41 - perhaps he took over this insignia from another pilot who flew in the 5 Staffel and flew schwarze 9.

Regards,
Rob

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hi Hohentwiel,
Sorry for not getting back to you till now, I have been working!
You are correct regarding the claims of Fritz Mias, they do correspond with the dates on the tail of W.Nr 1464.

14.6.40 1x Potez 63 Sht.dn Matry 18.45 hrs,
17.6.40 1x Potez 63 Sht dn ? 17.35 hrs.

So its maybe that Mias flew Black 8+- after the demise of his a/c on 19.6.40, and later was attributed to have flown Black 11+- W.Nr 1155.
A look through my records show W.Nr 1155 was still on the strength of JG3, 21.2.41 when it suffered 60% damage whilst no doubt being flown by a rookie pilot with the Erg/ JG3.

Rgs,
Steve.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Thank you Steve. That's very interesting. Mias was later one pilot
of the Schnauzl-Kette. Now we need the nickname of his "black 8".
Does anybody have some photos of the complete 109?
The most known photos show only parts of the 1464.
Larry, I'll scan the tail for you when I find some time.

Now I'm interested in the W.Nr. of the "Schluck=Specht" machines
of Horst Buddenhagen. We know the first one from Jochen Priens Vol.4/1.
I think the "3. Schluck=Specht", a "F" was the last one of Buddenhagen.
What's about the "2. Schluck=Specht"?

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Your welcome Hohentwiel,
Amongst the pilots of 5/JG3 prior to the Battle of Britain, i have a couple of other pilots with 2 kills.

Uffz Hermann Freitag
Uffz Konrad Nelleskamp
Fw Josef Heinzeller

Does anybody have any fotos of these pilots, or their a/c?
Also Rob asks about Uffz Alfred Heckmann, he is believed to have flown Black 6+- any further info on him or his a/c welcome.

Any further information would be most appreciated!
Rgs,
Steve.

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

At this point in the discussion, I would like to sum up what is known about 5 Staffel, JG 3, from its inception 2.40 through the end of 1940. A dozen pilots are known to have joined the unit between 2.40 and the beginning of the French Campaign. There may have been one or, at most, two not listed below assigned before or during the French Campaign (FC). All Luftwaffe units will eventually be charted with this information for the 1939-40 period as a small part of a much larger project. Anyone with photos or data that can help make this information more complete please contact me.

1) Oblt Herbert Kijewski (2), Black 1, probably WNr1443.
2) Lt. Werner Voight (1), Black? WNr?
3) Lt Horst Buddenhagen (1+1 unconfirmed), Black 7, WNr?
4) Lt Peter Wisser (0), Black ? WNr? Probably attached II Stab when +20.5.40
5) Obfw Horst Götz (1), Black? WNr?
6) Uffz Josef Heinzeller (2), Black? WNr?
7) Uffz Alfred Heckmann (1), Black WNr?*
8) Uffz Max Bücher (0), Black? WNr? +25.5.40
9) Uffz Konrad Nelleskamp (2), Black? WNr?
10) Uffz Hermann Frietag (2), Black?, WNr?
11) Uffz Fritz Mias (2), Black?, WNr (Temp MIA 19.6.40, 109E 100% loss)
12) Uffz Walter Ohlrogge (0), Black? WNr?*

*Later Knight's Cross Winners.

(-) Victories during the FC.

According to Obermeier's Knight's Cross book, later German only Edition, Ohlrogge was assigned in May, 1940, but served throughout the FC, thus there may have been another, unknown pilot assigned as a part of the original compliment of the unit.

Changes after French Campaign and before Battle of Britain: Replacements for Lt Wisser and Uffz Bücher: unknown. Other new pilot assignments: unknown.

Known Pilot/Plane assignments during Battle of Britain to 31.12.40:

1) Oblt Herbert Kijewski (2/3), Black 1, Probably WNr 1443 (lost 2.9.40). Nickname "Erika." Replacement Black 1, WNr.?
2) Lt. Werner Voight (1/2), Black? WNr?
3) Lt Horst Buddenhagen (1+1 unconfirmed/5), Black 7, WNr? Nickname "Schluck+Specht."
4) Obfw Horst Götz (1/1), Black? WNr? + 29.10.40
5) Uffz Josef Heinzeller (2/4), Black? WNr? Nickname "Schnauzl."
6) Uffz Alfred Heckmann (1/3), Black 6, WNr?
7) Uffz Konrad Nelleskamp (2/3), Black? WNr? Nickname "Schnauzl"?
8) Uffz Hermann Frietag (2/2), Probably Black 9, WNr? Nickname "Schnauzl."
9) Uffz Fritz Mias (2/2), Black 8, WNr 1464 (lost 5.9.40); Replacement probably Black 8.
10) Uffz Walter Ohlrogge (0/1), Black? WNr?

(-) First number is victories during French Campaign; second number is total victories recorded through 31.12.40.

Pilot Notes: Obermeier's Knight's Cross book gives the date of 28.8.40 for the first victory of Ohlrogge, and incident where his E-4 went down into channel from which he was rescued three hours later. Prien's JFV 4/II gives the date for this as 16.8.40, which is probably correct.

Plane Notes: Photos of Black 4, Black 10, Black 11 and Black 14 known from early-mid August 1940. Black 11 (WNr 1155) and 14 from same period have SCHNAUZL emblem of Heinszeller schwarm.These two likely flown by Nelleskamp and Heinzeller, although which is which is not known. Plane carried two victory tabs on fin, and both pilots had that number of victories as of the period of the photo. Photos of Black 9 crash-landed 8.40 may have two victory tabs on fin, reinforcing idea that this is Freitag's a/c (see below in Russia). Black 5 photo with unknown pilot circa 9.40 or later. Photo of plane nicknamed "Gretel" known from 8.40, but a/c # and pilot unknown. Black 10, circa early 8.40 has a large white disc with unknown insignia or emblem in it on both sides of the fuselage below the cockpit. Originally thought to be the emblem of Lt Max-Bruno Fischer, but this is apparently not accurate.

Later BoB photos (replacements) of Black 1, 4, 8 and 14 (Prien), probably as Jabos.

Known pilot changes during Battle of Britain to 31.12.40:

1) Oblt Voight to St Kap 4./JG 3 31.8.40; POW 8.10.40.
2) Obfw Götz WIA 28.8.40, 100% loss of E-4 WNr 5142; KNIA 29.10.40, 95% loss E-1 WNr 4873.
3) Fw Nelleskamp does not appear in Russian Campaign, and no info after 28.8.40 victory; probably transferred out for unknown reason on unknown date.

All other original or early pilots continued to serve in 5./JG 3 into 1941 and the beginning of the Russian Campaign: Kijewski, Buddenhagen, Freitag, Heinzeller, Heckmann, Mias, and Ohlrogge.

Pilots who appear early in Russian Campaign that may have joined 5. Staffel anytime before 31.12.40: Lt Herbert Glücke (POW in Black 4), Lt Friedrich Kanzler, Uffz Ernst Pröske, Uffz Eduard Kunz (POW in Black 12), Gefr Georg Reichhardt, Gefr Hans Pilz, Gegr Paul Brune.

Note: Fw Fritz Mias Temp MIA in Black 8, indicating he continued to fly Black 8 in both 1940 and 41. Lt Buddinhagen known to have flown Black 7 in both 1940 and 1941 (photography analysis). Fw Freitag went temp MIA in Black 9 on 22.6.40, indicating that he may also have been flying Black 9 in 1940.

Obviously there are many unanswered questions here. Help from anyone with any information that helps fill in the missing gaps would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hello Gentlemen,

any new info on aforementioned planes?

A photo of 'Black 11' appeared on ebay last month:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...E:B:SS:GB:1123

Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40
 

Hello,

Yes, I'd seen that posted. Would sure like to get a good res scan from the original print. This is probably the aircraft of either Nelleskamp or Heinzeller (see post above for BoB). If anyone can add any updates to the 4-year old info that I posted above, I'd sure like to hear from them.

Regards,