Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Hello,

Hoping this picture - sorry, of bad quality - may rise some interest in a proper thread.

It shows an allegated Do 17(?) coded ..+UK crashed in a forest near Gedinne (in Belgium and roughly 20 km SE of Givet) and not far away from the French Ardennes department.
Any other info.
May 1940 ?

Picture coming from Gedinne historical society.

Best regards

ClinA-78 (to Franck : also digging pictures ;))

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

oops here comes the picture

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Clin-A,

Still no picture.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Oddly, I am not able to attach it as it already appears in allied thread about "aircraft ID required (redux)"
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=34893

Sorry

ClinA-78

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

here is the pic

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Anyone to retrieve this picture from oblivion?
few detail doesn't help.

ClinA-78

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Not an easy puzzle.
I have no loss specifically at Gedinne until May 20.
However, there are quite a number of Luftwaffe losses "around Dinant".
Looking at the coding +UK I guess it is a bomber unit, since I haven't seen recon units with as high an individual letter as U.
(Others to comment when I'm wrong in this assumption).

Statistically the highest probability for a bomber loss around Dinant is KG76, because that was the unit operating in this area for almost a full week.
I have then two losses that might fit at first glance:
May 15 a Stab KG76 a/c
May 18 a 4./KG76 a/c

Normally neither of these fits to the 2. Staffel code +UK.
But then the individual letter U comes back: I still find that a strange one for a regular aircraft of a Staffel. So .... could this be some form of coding used by Stab KG76????
Pure speculation, and I'm not a specialist on KG76.
But if I had to put some (not much!) money on the bet, I'd go for the May 15 Stab a/c as the least unlikely fit.

Regards, Pieter

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Thank you for your observation.

ClinA-78

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Hello,

I’m afraid Pieter’s thoughts have to be revised completely.

The photo shows a Do 17 with “UK” (both letters in black) behind the cross. The second digit in front of the cross could be a “E”, “F” or “P”.

All second Staffeln of the Kampfgruppen have had black letters with a white border at the third position on Do 17 aircraft during 1940. None of these units would fit to the aircraft on the photo.

Several reconnaissance units flew with an all black code. Some of the (H)-Staffeln which were supporting the army forces, have had a few Do 17P or Do 17M in addition to their main equipment of Hs 126 during 1940. These Do 17 aircraft were arranged within some units at the end of the alphabet.

One of these reconnaissance units was 2.(H)/13 with the code 4E+xK. The unit reported one Do 17M lost after fighter attack near Bohain (which is located 15km south of Gedinne) on 20.Jan.1940. The crew was reported missing.

To my opinion the photo shows the Do 17M 4E+UK from 2.(H)/13 after being shot down on 20.01.40.

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Hello,

Interesting grain of salt :D

Bohain should be Bohan sur Semois, isn't it?

Note that I know the exact crashplace of an allegated Do 17 P (testimoned with plate on spar) situated at "le Risdoux" 3 km of Vireux-Watterand (F) which is roughly 15 km West of Gedinne but in French territory.
Again another Do 17 to ID...

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

read 3 km South of Vireux-Wallerand

ClinA-78

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Merlin,

A very interesting new and different view on the case.
As I said, a recon a/c is a serious option assuming these units used high alphabetical individual letters. You seem to confirm this, which increases that likelihood again. As I wrote I was already doubtful on the matches with KG76 but could not find anything better so far.

At the same time your assumption is also likely not correct. The a/c you refer to came down in Germany. I cite the famous Peter Cornwell:

Friday, January 19:
2.(H)/13 Dornier Do17M (2202). Shot down in flames over Bohain by Curtiss H-75'sof GC II/5 dring reconnaissance sortie and crashed near Pforzheim. Fw P.Auer, Oberfw J. Kaspers, and Fw P. Dickfoss killed. Aircraft a write-off.

This is also in line with the fact that there are no unidentified German losses over Belgium before May 10. So I still think this must be a loss between May 10 and say May15 by when the fighting had moved much more to the west.

So we're a step back:
Do17M or P from a recon unit 2nd Staffel
code +UK
Gedinne area south of Dinant
likely between 10-15 May

The problem is that I can't find any direct candidates for this. No Do17M/P losses of Heeresauf.kl.Gr in this area, all Fernaufkl.Gr. losses with known codes have low individual letters.
So still a mistery.

Regards, Pieter

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Coincidence !

http://www.ebay.de/itm/org-2WK-deut-...item2ecb302768

Thanks Flupke

ClinA-78

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Hi Flupke,
indeed a real lucky chance this picture appears right now; thanks!

At first glance I thought it was not the same a/c, given the straight lower left angle of the third letter, which makes it unlikely a U. Also on the last letter K one would expect to see the upper branch.
However, looking at your first picture from your initial post one sees the unusual letter style that makes it plausibel this is indeed the +UK. Both the U (with straight corners) and the K (asymmetrical, with a short upper arm and a long lower arm) are non-standard characters.
Which brings us to the first two letters.
I would love to read U5 (so KG2), but I think it is UE, making the total code UE+UK, a Stammkennzeichen. Also because no Staffel colors are used for the 3rd letter. This SKZ is unfortunately not listed in the LEMB database, so not able to verify.
It makes if highly likely this was then a reconnaissance aircraft.

As to the location, like the title of the auction says, I also read Villerzie at best. Which is a non-existing name. The closest I then get is Villers-sur-Lesse, close to Han and Rochefort and well within your target area around Gedinne. But then again I have no confirmed recon losses around that location.

So much closer already, thanks to your pictures, but not there yet.

Regards, Pieter

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

alas, not even the STKZ nor the WNr. are useful in this case!

Willerzie village is situated at 8 km West of Gedinne. The whole area is forested and the high ground there, the 'Croix-Scaille' (480 m) seems to have attracted many crashes there! This is a good spot for walking through the Belgian Ardennes.

ClinA-78

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

The last two letters appear to be DK to me

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Pieter,

the WNr. 2525 identifies the aircraft as a Do 17Z-2, which was a bomber version.

The code could not be a Stammkennzeichen, because the “U” as a first letter was only used for single engined, heavy civil aircraft and the Do 17 was in the civil “A” registration class.

This crashed aircraft has had U5+UK from 2./KG 2.

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Should be this (Debowa is right, that it is DK):
1940-05-15, 2./KG 2, Do 17Z, U5+DK, Nähe Furmay, 26 km nördlich Charleville-Mézières, Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuß und Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Gießübel, Vinzenz
Beobachter Uffz Tanzberger, Hans, verletzt
Bordfunker Uffz Gerlach, Kurt
Bordmechaniker Fw Schreyer, Heinrich, verletzt
The whole crew POW but returned later.

Matti

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Hello,

Just to let you know, Peter Cornwell has now re-assessed this for the EoE Luft Loss DB as:

"15 May 1940: 2./KG2 Dornier Do17Z (2526). Port engine set alight in attacks by No. 3 Squadron Hurricanes between Sedan and Dinant during sortie to attack rail targets between Challerange and Ste-Menehould 11.00 a.m. Crash-landed in forest near Willerzie, three miles west of Gedinne. Possibly that claimed by P/O Gardner. BO Uffz Hans Tanzberger and BM Fw Heinrich Schreyer both captured wounded, FF Uffz Vinzenz Gießübel and BF Uffz Kurt Gerlach both captured unhurt – all later released. Aircraft U5+DK 100% write-off."

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Great result guys, thanks!
I still have a little doubt on the 5, since I see the left vertical continue to go down, but for the moment let myself be convinced by the majority.

As to the cause of the crash, I have a lsightly modified view. As far as I know 2./KG2 was at 6.30 local time over their targets near Reims, too early to be attacked by either GC I/3 (my earlier thought) or No. 3 Sqn. So I think it was the French DCA.
Which then gives:

May 15: 2./KG2 Dornier Do17Z (2526). Hit by DCA on return of sortie to attack rail targets at Sillery and Witry-les-Reims, 07.00 a.m. Crash-landed in forest near Willerzie, three miles west of Gedinne. BO Uffz Hans Tanzberger and BM Fw Heinrich Schreyer both captured wounded, FF Uffz Vinzenz Gießübel and BF Uffz Kurt Gerlach both captured unhurt – all later released. Aircraft U5+DK 100% write-off.

Regards, Pieter

Re: Do 17 ??+UK crashed near Gedinne (B)
 

Whatever the cause of the fall, thanks for your inputs.

From a blured picture we have now a known loss.

Best regards

ClinA-78