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- - Photos 10-3 + (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=35337)

edwest

3rd October 2013 17:43

Photos 10-3 +

ouidjat

3rd October 2013 18:27

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Thanks Ed,

http://www.ebay.de/itm/146-Foto-deut...-/370910333402?
Ju 188E-2, n°3 Unit 10.S (future 10.S-12) taken at Le Luc, 1946/1947.

First flight 26-Feb-1946.
Reception 9-Oct-1946 to 25-Oct-1946
Escadrille 10.S (10.S-12) 28-Oct-1946
F-YVJG in 1947.
Maintenance from 11/1948 to 04/1949 (No spare Engine)
Unavailable End 1950.
Proposed to reform on 06-Aug-1951 (1412/AERO/M)
Reformed 23-Oct-1951 at St. Raphael (1034/SEC)

Equiped in order to receive both FX 1400 and Hs 293.

Regards, Franck.

edNorth

3rd October 2013 23:04

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Hi Franck

Please do not call this "Ju 188 E-2", as in service it was the AAB-1 ( but based on Ju 188 E-1 / F-1 version, BMW 801 engines, and thus in all probability were just Ju 188 E-1´s despite used by the Aeronavale). They were configured for FX 1400 and HS 293 bombs/missles by the French.

Clarifying: the Ju 188 E-2 was planned as Torp (Torpedo Bomber) version, but I have not seen any (photo) proof the French Ju 188 E´s were configured to carry torpedoes (like the Ju 188 A-3 with Torp equipment). My french is poor but I can not find any evidence in the book you quote from. Possibly there exists a document somewhere in old Frence files, but these are not indentified by their W.Nr´s, so one does not know for shure.

BTW, I also see the info comes from Pierre Dumollard "Junkers 88 et 188 Francais", Page 168 (right?), but it does say I agree with him on "E-2" version (which I think is error). This book has more errors, the photo text on top of page 18 says "Un Ju 88 abandonné par ..." actually shows a Heinkel He 177 "Greif" wreck. It is such mistakes that make one wonder, is the research behind such as exact.

- (the other) ed

Jim P.

4th October 2013 00:03

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Many thanks for this Ed. Good to see you back again. The vagaries of what is available on e-Bay at any time aside, the variety of this particular group of offerings is amazing. There's something for almost every particular area of interest.

Tony Kambic

4th October 2013 00:07

Re: Photos 10-3 +

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=370909553514

Please can anyone name the Knight's Cross winners in the photograph about halfway down in the album?

edwest

4th October 2013 02:10

Re: Photos 10-3 +

You're welcome, everyone. Due to an increased workload these past few months, I've only been able to post on occasion. But the quest for more treasure will continue.

Best,
Ed

G.R.Morrison

4th October 2013 06:14

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Mr. Kambic,

The Ritterkreuzträger are Erwin-Peter Diekwisch, Martin Möbus and Otto Schmidt. I/St.G. 5, Summer 1943.

GRM

ouidjat

4th October 2013 11:20

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Quote:

Originally Posted by edNorth (Post 173157)

Hi Franck

Quote:

Originally Posted by edNorth (Post 173157)

Please do not call this "Ju 188 E-2", as in service it was the AAB-1 ( but based on Ju 188 E-1 / F-1 version, BMW 801 engines, and thus in all probability were just Ju 188 E-1´s despite used by the Aeronavale). They were configured for FX 1400 and HS 293 bombs/missles by the French.

Clarifying: the Ju 188 E-2 was planned as Torp (Torpedo Bomber) version, but I have not seen any (photo) proof the French Ju 188 E´s were configured to carry torpedoes (like the Ju 188 A-3 with Torp equipment). My french is poor but I can not find any evidence in the book you quote from. Possibly there exists a document somewhere in old Frence files, but these are not indentified by their W.Nr´s, so one does not know for shure.

BTW, I also see the info comes from Pierre Dumollard "Junkers 88 et 188 Francais", Page 168 (right?), but it does say I agree with him on "E-2" version (which I think is error). This book has more errors, the photo text on top of page 18 says "Un Ju 88 abandonné par ..." actually shows a Heinkel He 177 "Greif" wreck. It is such mistakes that make one wonder, is the research behind such as exact.

- (the other) ed

Hello Ed (2nd )

- Ju 88 were AAB.1 not Ju 188. (See same book P.24)
As for Ju 188, I cannot say if they received any SNCASE production code/name. (I expected AAB.2 if ever)

- E-2 or E-1?
Why not? In all book they are just described as Ju 188 except in the last table where they are called Ju 188 E-2.
I wonder why in all book the author take care of calling the first machines as Ju 88, then when produced/rebuilt by SNCASE, as AAB and or AAB.1 (P.24), and nothing else than Ju 188 for the Ju 188s.
So, I think there was no AAB for those machines. It's possible, I don't know.
More, considering the way they got them, rebuild them from spare parts, I think it's difficult to call them Ju 188 E-1 or E-2, so far.

- He 177: You're right.
Just because of that error can we consider it’s enough to throw this book in the bin? If so we can do it for all past and present publications, can’t we?
By the contrary, I think there is more than enough sources provided in this work, quoted help too, and it seems to me quite well documented and acceptable.

- Last, I didn’t talk about torpedoes, just FX1400 (Photos P.71 and P.73) and Hs 293 (P.76); French Navy didn’t consider them as Torpedoes but as “Flying guided missiles”.

Last, since I only have this book, I cannot say more (Though I remember “Le Fanatique de l’ Aviation” did publish an article about those machines.)

So, Dear Ed, thanks anyway for your comments and help about this. I just did put few available details concerning that eBay picture.

I think, however, that you’re right some details deserved to be clear up.

Regards, Franck.

Peter Achs

4th October 2013 13:27

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Hi ednorth,

please take a look in the manual of the Ju 188 (Part 0). There you will find a description of the subtype Ju 188 E-2. This was not a torpedo plane. There was a similar recce subtype Ju 188 F-2.

Your confusion probably comes from the fact that even a tropical version (abbr. "tp") of the Ju 188 E-2 was planned.

Regards
Peter

RT	4th October 2013 13:34

Re: Photos 10-3 +

please take a look in the manual of the Ju 188 (Part 0). There you will find a description of the subtype Ju 188 E-2. This was not a torpedo plane. There was a similar recce subtype Ju 188 F-2.

Your confusion probably comes from the fact that even a tropical version (abbr. "tp") of the Ju 188 E-2 was planned.

Regards
Peter

The great return, any news from your book ??/Books ??

Rémi

edNorth

5th October 2013 04:43

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Peter, Checked "Teil O", and yes, I see your point.
Interesting twist. This manual is dated before Ju 188 torpedo testing (A-3 PL+TS & BT+HQ), but NJ+TS and Ju 188 V10 260156 were used earlier (autum 1943).
This one (NJ+.. linked) was possibly once an E version. Look there has been overpainted areas where the dive brakes were, or is this perhaps NJ+TS from the F series, but then again an F series fitted with E series wings, an E-3 ... eh?)
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2...e/ju188e-7.jpg

Frank,
Thanks. Yes, unfortunately I know there many such mistakes in Modern books.

Also thanks to Ed for the eBay listings.

edwest

5th October 2013 05:37

Re: Photos 10-3 +

You're welcome Ed (no relation) :)

Ed

Peter Achs

5th October 2013 13:07

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Hi ed (very)north,

your photo shows the Ju 188 V10 (260156) with the STK NJ+TS. There was only one Ju 188 with BMW 801 and torpedo installation. Werknummer and STK are confirmed by several flight logbooks. The torpedo tests began in September 1943. Oddly, the plane in original documents was called A-3.

The subtype E-2 was originally planned as a bomber with Jumo 213, as it was later built as A-2. Take a look in the programs 1942 and early 1943.

Remi:
The book is a work in progress.

Regards
Peter

edNorth

5th October 2013 20:24

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Peter. Yes, I have LP 225 page stating Ju 188 V10 260156 was "A-3" version with BMW 801 G engines, but thought this was perhaps garbled Werk-Nr. (as its not actually an A-3 if it had BMW 801 engines).
Also need check better on late 1943/1944 plans.

BTW, The same Ju 188 photo (linked before and again below) is labelled “Ju 188 E-3” in AJ-Press Monograph Lotnicze 33 by Robert Michulec “Junkers Ju 188 & 388 Pt.I” P.21

Two photos of Torpedo equipped Ju 188 {JFM Photos # S3 J.48177 and S J.48165} are in Christoph Vernaleken & Martin Handig “Junkers Ju 388” P.75 likely show this same one close up. They also have NJ+TS as "E-3" on page 380.

This modelmaker markets this as "E-1 / F-2" version.
http://www.mojehobby.pl/zdjecia/3/1/...2_BIL927_1.jpg
and A-3 / E-2 version ...
http://www.model-making.eu/zdjecia/8...2_BIL959_1.jpg
http://www.oupsmodel.com/images/prod...acher-1-72.jpg

And here is stated an "E-2" ...
http://bw-hilchenbach.de/Ju__188.jpg
found here ...
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=98376

and this "E-2"
http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3y...2520188E-2.jpg

So many errors out there .... this is just sample of what Google brought up. Have nice weekend.
-ed

ChrisS

6th October 2013 01:18

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Doubtless Peter's book will be the final word in correcting all these errors. Look forward to it.

Stig Jarlevik

6th October 2013 21:31

Re: Photos 10-3 +

All

I don't think the French called them anything but Ju 188, and with just four of them being delivered, I don't even think they bothered which sub-type it was. J-P Dubois does not quote any French document where the actual sub-type is stated. Neither did A.A.B. give any formal type designation to either the Ju 88 nor Ju 188. They were known/referred to in official documents as either Ju 88 and Ju 188.

Just one comment to Franck's list of No 3. J-P Dubois is not 100% clear when No 3 actually arrived. Reason is that he refers to the quarter of the year (trimestre).

The code 10.S-12 was initially applied to No 2 (arrived 30.8.1946) and it carried that code in/beginning of the fourth quarter of 1946.
The code 10.S-12 is known to have been applied to No 3 in the second quarter of 1947. J-P Dubois is not entirely clear but it may be possible that upon arrival to 10S No 3 actually carried the code 10.S-13.

I will have to ask him if he can expand on this subject :)
One final point, the 'code' F-YCJG in 1947 was a radio call sign only and the aircraft carried its 10.S-12 on the fuselage all the time.

Cheers
Stig

ouidjat

7th October 2013 16:38

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik (Post 173330)

Hello Stig,

All what I quote is coming from Dumollard book. JP Dubois is quoted in "thanks" list for his help...

That being said.
- No doubt you're right about the way these planes were called in unit.
- For call sign ... of course. I thought it was obvious.
- As for 10.S coding:
They received the code following reception order ... But - Dumollard - writes that during first quarter of 1947 they were recoded following serie order.
Last - still quoting Dumollard - N°3 came on 28/10/1946.

Regards, Franck.

edNorth

23rd October 2013 01:59

Re: Photos 10-3 +

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Achs (Post 173248)

There was only one Ju 188 with BMW 801 and torpedo installation. Werknummer and STK are confirmed by several flight logbooks. The torpedo tests began in September 1943. Oddly, the plane in original documents was called A-3. The subtype E-2 was originally planned as a bomber with Jumo 213, as it was later built as A-2. Take a look in the programs 1942 and early 1943.

Not wanting readers be let down, but time has been rather tight attending to this specific problem. Nothing is only black or white in Junkers 88/188/388 series, rather many shades of Grey. Having Jumo 213 engines in the Ju 188 E-2 looks strange to me, just as writing up an plane with BMW 801 as an "A-3". I have not yet traced these planned Ju 188 E-2´s (with or without Jumo 213 engines) in the RLM C-Amt Production Plans (Lieferplane) or JFM pre-plan study´s (Entwurf) from 1942 or 1943. These mostly (always) turning up as G-2, H-2, M-1, D/H etc. I even found the Ju 88 N-1 (Jumo 213) Nightfighters in one plan. Maybe I missed the correct one.

But there is one reference (below) with the "Ju 188 A-3" "Torpedo" (total 364 examples), but curiously these were split in two by Anmerkung! (to 177 and 187 respectevely) ...

"Ju 188 A-3 (Jumo 213) Lt-Flg".
but appears "struck out" (with pencil) over E-3 designation only
"Ju 188 E-3 (BMW 801) Lt-Flg."

Ref: Plan JFM E 184, FTH-Pl 43 520, that dealt only with the Ju 188 and Ju 88, dated 3.12.43. (This was "Grundplane für LP 225 1.12.43") Only page for the Ju 188 is shown below.

http://i42.tinypic.com/rwjjw1.jpg

This likely is the (wrong) reference I remembered about "Ju 188 E-2 Torpedo-Bombers". I apologize not finding this earlier; There were lot of interim plans and pre-plans (Entwurf) that contained sub-variants that did not see much light of day. Cancelled in short. I even read somewhere, there was planned to re-engine some Ju 188 A-3 with BMW 801´s. If these then became E-3´s will not be stated. Maybe someone will pull the real E-2 or E-3´s out of his hat.

Regards
-Ed

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