Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi

In his Flugbuch are 2 Claims on the 29.09.1944. Flight 1097 from Piscolt to Klausenburg (11.15 - 13.45 Uhr), Me Bf 109 G WNr.780890. Hope it helps.

Greetings Christian

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Christian,

May I ask you if Steinhoff's Flugbuch for the period July 1942 - February 1943 survived and available somewhere?

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

hi, in Johannes (of the forum) info:
22,9.44 St./JG 77 Obstlt Yak-9 _____ _____ E N.B N u/c
24,9.44 St./JG 77 Obstlt Il-2 _____ _____ E N.B N u/c
24,9,44 St./JG 77 Obstlt Yak-9 _____ _____ E N.B N u/c
25,9.44 St./JG 77 Obstlt Bf109 raum Klausenberg Klausenberg area _____ _____ E N.B N u/c

seems all unconfirmed....
regards

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Christian,

Can you tell us the types of aircraft claimed on 29.9.44?

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Steinhoff made no claim for 29th September 1945, after the four unconfirmed he next claims:-

27th February 1945 2 X Jak-9 Nr.163-164 Stab./Jg7
20th March 1945 Il-2 Nr.165 Stab./Jg7
3rd April 1945 B-17 Nr.166 Jv44
5th April 1945 P-51 Nr.167 Jv44
9th April 1945 P-51 Nr.168 Jv44

Steinhoff had his fair amount of unconfirmed, apart from those for September 1944 they were:-

2nd July 1941 DB-3
9th July 1941 Pe-2
19th Mai 1942 Il-2 at 0840 hrs
22nd May 1942 MiG-1
25th February 1944 B-17
14th July 1944 B-25
25th August 1944 P-38 at 1000 hrs

He once shot down a Russian fighter, the pilot baled-out, he submitted his claim form stating that he didn't actually see the aircraft crash, they wrote back asking why you should think that they would uphold a claim when you admit you didn;t see it crash, Steinhoff wrote back "I just assumed that a pilotless aircraft didn't fly it's self back to base and land safely".....they replied "Unconfirmed" !!

Regards

Johannes

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi

In the Flugbuch are no Types of his claims for this time.

Greetings Christian

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hello Christian and GMichalski.
Thanks a lot for your help and answers. Each of you is writing about different dates and times.
Christian:
29.9.1944 2x e/a 11.15 – 13.45 Uhr

GMichalski:
22.9.44 Yak-9 E NB N u / c
24.9.44 Il-2 E NB N u/c
24.9.44 Yak-9 E NB N u/c
25.9.44 Bf109 raum Klausenberg E NB N u/c
Can you please write me your sources? Where do your information come from (books, forum, web?). Where can I find it and read it? Thank you very much!
Marek

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

I bumped this thread because it deals with the new one started today by Marek.

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hello mr Bernád,

Don´t you know any details, more information about these victories?

Marek Brzkovský

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

I too bump that quite old thread as I found confusing those JG 7 victories from Johannes Steinhoff:

Coming from you Johannes I'm inclined to believe they are legitimate but most sources tells JG 7 was engaged in the West on those days (was it JV 44 for the 20th March?). Soviets first sighting of Me 262 occured in mid-February and they scored a single victory on 22 March before real confrontations occured between the VVS and german jets from 27 April 1945 onward. Were there any jet victories over Soviet aircraft before that or that's just Steinhoff and his three victories?

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hmmm..... That story changes things for me. If Directive 55270/41 (Confirmation of Aerial Victories) was being interpreted that strictly--that stupidly--that absurdly--then overclaiming from time to time by Jagdwaffe pilots was a fair and just thing to do.

Simply said, after some desk-bound, pencil-necked, jerkoff clown did that to me once, just once, I would be overclaiming every chance I got. Let me get this straight: I'm outnumbered in the air (and risking my life) almost every day to shoot down enemy machines, and when I do, some moron back at headquarters is going to treat me like this? Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

If I was Johannes Steinhoff, I would have written a letter to the Führer informing him of the situation. I would have enclosed the previous letters and suggested that the clerks who made the decision to deny my claim (and wrote those letters to me) BE SHOT for demoralizing the Luftwaffe fighter arm.

Bronc

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi

With Steinhoff we are fortunate, not only does his flugbuch survive, but also an abschüßelist, which lists 178 confirmed victories, though there is a duplication slip-up in it reducing it to 176 confirmed victories, or 176 victories Steinhoff thought were confirmed. Don't know why his claims over Romania were not confirmed, Peter Düttmann got his confirmed.

I have not heard any rumours about reliability of claims regarding Steinhoff, so we can assume that this very high scoring pilot was one of the honest top guys, and with very big scorers about half were shall we say were less than honest.

Regarding his unconfirmed claims, and not pursuing them, I guess having so many, it just wasn't a big deal/thing for him. Otherwise he was outspoken enough to have caused a few small waves.

Keep well

Johannes

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Just out of curiosity how can one individual looking in Steinhoff's log book find
"In his Flugbuch are 2 Claims on the 29.09.1944. Flight 1097 from Piscolt to Klausenburg (11.15 - 13.45 Uhr), Me Bf 109 G WNr.780890" (as seen by Christian)

while Johannes equally certain states "Steinhoff made no claim for 29th September 1944"?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Is 26 December 1944 the correct date that Steinhoff was dismissed as kommodore of JG 7?

best regards,

Jim

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Gentlemen,

How many Allied planes did Steinhoff shot down with the fighter jet Me-262?

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi Edward

By memory six with the Me262, the first were against Russian aircraft.

Keep well

Johannes

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi Edward,

I have doubts as to Steinhoff having access to a Me 262 of Stab/JG 7 in February and March 1945. Robert Forsyth on page 24 of Jagdverband 44 Squadron of Experten, (2008), quotes Steinhoff: "My old unit, JG 7, was stationed at the same airfield [Brandenburg-Briest], but they had orders from Galland's successor not to lift a finger to help us..."

Jim

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi Guys

I have a typed-out version of Steinhoff's flugbuch. Also a list officially complied on 10th June 1944.

At the end of 1941 he was making claims(official list) that are not noted on the typed-out flugbuch.

No two lists ever match for him, be it mikrofilms, official list, or flugbuch.

In his written account his first combat sortie in the Me262 is inferred to be against an Il-2 which he shoots down, the crew escaping a crash-landing into a snow drift. He also mentions the Bf109E in September 1944, which would appear to be missing from his flugbuch.

You would think the flugbuch more likely to be correct as completed shortly after each sortie, though any claims are often under described, often just mentioned as abschüß. This is typical for a flugbuch. With abschüßeliste many are written post-war, but Steinhoff's is dated. One of his September 1944 claims happens on a day when he wasn't even flying according to his flugbuch.

Clearly even official document include mistakes.

Keep well

Johannes

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Johannes

Very interesting.
With his typed out Flugbuch, which one do you mean? Surely he must have had more than one. So do you have all of them?

Where are the originals of Steinhoff's Flugbücher kept today?
Did Steinhoff, when still alive, acknowledge the books were his and original?

I am asking since Christian has obviously access to/seen what he claims to be Steinhoff's FB for mission 1097 dated 29 Sep 1944 (see post 14).
If your typed out list for 29 Sep 1944 does not have any claims at all is it possible Christian (or the person who typed your list) has read the wrong date?
You have Steinhoff making two claims 24 Sep 1944, but no further details.
A sloppy digit 4 can easily be read as a digit 9 (or in fact vice versa!)

Steinhoff's final claim with JG 77 was, as per your book, on the 25th and in the Klausenberg area.
If we then look at what Christian quote for the 29th he says specifically from Piscolt to Klausenberg, which to me indicates a transfer flight,
perhaps combined with a mission itself.
That also indicates, unless Stab JG 77 were flying back and forth, the two claims on the 29th actually are those from the 24th. When making his
final JG 77 claim on the 25th, he was already in the Klausenberg area.

More worrying seems to be "official" data does not correspond to the Microfilmed data. I know far too little about how each was made to have any
opinion on that, but I don't like it. They should correspond....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi Stig

You are absolutely correct, could be a mis-read, or typo error. I will try to acquire a copy of the actual flugbuch. The official "166" by 10th June 1944 absolutely has mistakes, duplication seven months later for a start, also it mentions if witnessed, only two "ohne Zeugen"(O.Z) yet in his typed-out flugbuch it mentions another claim as O.Z.

The none noting of late 1941 claims could be sort weakness/fault in the flugbuch copy it was taken from.

I do not think any recounts of events in Steinhoff's book would be fabrications, as I do believe Steinhoff was honest in his claims, certainly the pattern of his claims would suggest honesty. But perhaps this can be explored by Allied loses experts. His claims for four Lightnings in one sortie should be easy enough proven, or otherwise.

With the official list, I believe by the fact that the mikrofilms give far more details, would suggest the mikrofilms would be the correct one, also they were completed daily, whereas the official list would be put together at some point, I would think mistakes more likely.

I would guess that when Steinhoff received the official "166" list, that he didn't check it against anything, therefore it's likely he took it as fact. Even with a "total", with so many claims, and waiting for confirmations to come through, how would he be absolutely sure of his total anyway.

Keep well

Johannes

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

I think that apart of his log books, a diary must exist or must have existed while writing his book. I have tried to contact his family but in vain. I can imagine, though, that they might not want to release it due to family Gestapo connection.

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Thanks Johannes

Yes it would be interesting to find out if the 24th or 29th is the correct date.
I am leaning towards the 24th (just as you), but one never knows...

Franek

That was an interesting observation. Care to elaborate a bit more on that connection?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Steinhoff's sister Charlotte married Dr Ludwig Hahn – Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD in Warsaw.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ied_Warsaw.jpg

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Thanks Franek

Very interesting. Had no idea about that.
With Steinhoff in the center, is that his parents to the left in the picture and his sister and her husband
to the right?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

First from left is Hahn, then his wife. I do not know who is on the right. I have looked for a better copy of the picture but in vain. I shall try again.
They did not know, did they?

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Thanks for the update.

Did they know? They knew a lot more than they admitted. It is rare to find a single Luftwaffe individual
admitting he knew anything. A few did.
I read a book published by Bonniers in Sweden in 1944 where basically everything that happened in
the Camps was told.
If we knew, they knew

Let's stop there since we are heading towards a political discussion....

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Well, it is history. Trying to erase any part of it is a bad thing.
I am certain, that he had a diary, his books being very accurate. This might be the reason, it remains hidden.

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi Guys

Russell Fahey kindly sent me a photo copy of the original flugbuch. Steinhoff's handwriting is clear and neat, don't know why he omitted claims for late 1941;

The "166" official list has several errors, firstly his Wellington claims for 18th December 1939 are recorded as 12th December 1939, the 18th would be the correct date. Clearly there is an error for the two for 10th May 1940, the first matches British losses well, the second should be impossible by virtue of the crash-site Dusseldorf, which in my opinion should read Den Haag like the other for that date.
But getting to the business end, The "166" by it's own counting should be "165" that for 25th January 1943 is recorded as nr.145 and again later as nr.163, and Steinhoff himself records nr.166(9th June 1944) as nr.167.
After this he records two claims for 24th September 1944, no types recorded, but there's nothing to say one couldn't be a Bf109, but for the first time in over hundred claims he doesn't give numbers, the mikrofilms should have recorded these but didn't, therefore I believe that they were just claims, not confirmed.

His flugbuch is signed-off on 11th january 1945(with no more claims) by Hauptmann and technical officer R Streicherz I think that's what his name reads, it's recorded twice. Usually this is because the pilot has been transferred. So the claims alleged with JG7 should be there but are not, but two flights on 4th January 1945 are recorded using the Me262.

Now it gets interesting. On the next sheet Streicherz as technical officer to JV44 signs of the next five flights, with a sentence stating a calculated ten flights from Munchen-Reims are missing, but the five claims are not entered by Steinhoff, but by Streicherz, including three claims, these five flight are between 2nd and 4th April 1945. Yet it looks like a forgery, at least the signature, and there's no official stamp.

I have an abschusselist which is typed-out, but somebody has corrected a few mistakes, and listed his final claims:-

nr.168 22nd September 1944 Jak-9
nr.169 24th September 1944 Il-2
nr.170 24th September 1944 Jak-9
nr.171 25th September 1944 Bf109E(Steinhoff did not fly this day)
nr.172 -173 27th February 1945 two Jak-9's
nr.174 20th March 1945 Il-2
nr.175 3rd April 1945 B-17
nr,176 5th April 1945 P-51
nr.177 8th April 1945 P-51

But also states regarding Me262 claims:-

Two Russian fighters February 1945
1 x B-17, 1 X P-51
middle of March 1945 one Russian over Berlin.

But also totals from lists:- ...........these contradict.

1st October 1944 total 169
1st January 1945 total 171
1st February 1945 total 171

I have seen one doctored flugbuch before where somebody has added in claims for a pilot who was a POW for a long time, so who's flugbuch was doctored probably by somebody else. One can be almost certain the pilot didn't have this flugbuch with him when he was shot-down over England, who got there hands on it is hard to say, possibly a family member, but the add-ins are clearly not in the pilots own handwriting !

So what the truth is is very hard to establish. We could establish if the five none Steinhoff written flights were on the flugbuch prior to Steinhoff's death.
Also Romanian Bf109E losses for around 24th September 1944. Was Streicherz(if that's his name) alive to write the last five entries.

Keep well

Johannes

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

It looks perfect!

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi Johannes,

Thank you for all the hard work you have done on this thread.

deZeng & Stankey in their Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries give this:

STREICHER, Herbert. (DOB: 24.03.14 in Lunenberg). 05.02.43 Oblt. (Kr.O.), trf from Sturzkampffliegerschule 2 to Kdo. Erprobungsstellen d. Lw. 13.10.44 Hptm. appt Techn. Offz. of Kdo. Nowotny. 1944 Techn. Offz. III./JG 7. 1945 Hptm. and Techn. Offz. in Stab/JG 7.

Both Manfred Boehme, Jagdgeschwader 7 Die Chronik ..., (1983), p. 163 and Robert Forsyth, Jagdgeschwader 7 'Nowotny', (Osprey, 2008), p. 70 have Streicher as still with JG 7 on 20 March 1945.

best regards,

Jim

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Hi Jim

Thanks for your input. Guess it makes my theory about the last page being fake more plausible.

Also it would appear that Steinhoff ends his time with JG7 on 11th January 1945, which rather goes against what was generally thought. But if that is the case, what was he doing for also three months?

Keep well

Johannes

Re: Johannes Steinhoff victories
 

Thanks Frank

Lets say I was having a senior moment.

Kind Regards

Johannes