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When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Dear All,
Yes, I know that sounds like a really arcane question to ask. Let me explain my interest. According to a Polish magazine, Krupp manufactured Me 262 steel wing spar caps at the mine. The mine was located near Frankenberg, if that is of any help in trying to answer my question. I really don't have any outside corroboration of this activity but, with the details given in the article, it seems to be authentic. One possible reason I can't find independent corroboration is that, by the time the Germans prepared a detailed list of Me 262 parts suppliers (20 Mar. 1945) the mine may have been overrun by the Red Army, which explains my interest in the date this actually happened. Taking a more elevated view of Me 262 production in the last 6 months of the war, the various dates that production facilities fell into Allied hands is important and I'd like to know if there is a source of day by day front line advance data. Taking yet a different view, these same facilities (that is, the ones above ground) may have been badly damaged due to Allied bombing. Is there a day by day source of what was hit and how badly it was damaged? Thanks in advance for any help. Regards, Richard |
Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Hi Richard,
I'm not sure was there a chance to "manufacture" anything in Constantin mine. Check this out: http://www.forum.eksploracja.pl/view...p?f=137&t=2107 But I'll keep on searching. The mine itself is located in Braszowice (form.Baumgarten), some 1,5 mile North of Frankenberg (nowadays: Przyłęk, or Przylek if you PC can't properly display Polish charaters). As for day-by-day list of attacked obejcts - there is no such a list. The Lower Silesia was out of interest of both 8th and 15th USAAF by then. Just the Soviets were approaching, though this area was not of their special interest, as they were deeply engaged in hostilities around Breslau, further to the North. |
Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Dear Pawel,
Thanks for the input. Yes, my computer will display Polish characters. The first forum entry contained a link whose end word was Salamander, but, going there, it seems that that portion of the website is no longer active. I await further input. Regards, Richard |
Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Richard wrote:
Quote:
Gunter, Georg. Last Laurels - The German Defence of Upper Silesia January-May 1945. ISBN 1 874622 65 5. Helion & Co., 2002. L. |
Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Dear Larry,
That's precisely the information I needed. Thank you very much. This leaves only 2 possibilities. One, that the 20 Mar. 1945 Me 262 parts supplier list listed only or primarily assemblies, whereas the steel spar caps were only components. Or, as Pawel has hinted, that the claim of the spar cap manufacturing operation at the mine is bogus. The pictures of the mine today to me suggest that it may have been too small to hold a hot steel rolling mill. The spar caps were rolled from 2 trapezoidally shapped billets face to face with one on top of the other. Subsequently, the rolled steel would need to be trimmed to the transverse dimensions of the spar and bent, as the spar starts out perpendicular to the fuselage and then bends backwards for the swept wing. These operations would have required smaller equipment to perform and thus this might have been what took place in the mine. I'm certainly open to further input. Regards, Richard |
Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Gents,
If the specific places' date of capture (Russians name it "liberation" :rolleyes:) is the basic concern, please check this out: http://www.eng.9may.ru/ . Each selected date is the end of the period, so clicking an arrow "forward" one is doing search in reverse order in fact. As there isn't search engine, I wish you a benedictine patience with your effort. The Constantine mine was renamed into Konstanty after 1947. It was considered to be abandoned and unavailable at the begining, however some mining engineers found the way how to make it active after a couple of years. According to some Polish documents (quoted on Polish websites) the Constantine was closed yet before the war. The post-war reactivation followed after careful and precise diagnostic job. It looks I've misguided the Forums writing about mining? Nope. The early reports describe the condition of the Constantine with one very important sentence: "no activity of any kind after 1939 down in the mine reported". It means that Constantine was abandoned, but it wasn't converted into production fascility. It also means that Soviets weren't the first to enter the Constantine after WW2. My search is still on. Now, I'll try to find alternate production place for Me-262 elements in Frankenstein (Ząbkowice Śląskie) district. Pawel |
Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Ups, one more thing. As to your specific question: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?The answer is: never.
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Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Dear Pawel,
Thank you for your further inputs. What is the source of your quote about the inactivity at the mine during WW II? And, if the Soviet Army passed by the mine, even if they didn't enter it, then the date of this event is still important if Krupp actually did produce Me 262 steel spar caps there. But, assuming you are right about the lack of activity at the mine, we might be running into the old conundrum between planned and actual activity. There were a lot of plans made that never were acted upon. This could have been one of them. Regards, Richard |
Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Dear All,
Paweł and I have discussed this issue at length via e-mail. He is convinced by the weight of evidence that the magnesite mine Constantin never did produce steel Me 262 wing spar caps. I, too, have come to this conclusion along with his help, which is most appreciated. The claim started with an article in the 1/2005 issue of Odkrywca entitled “Tajemnice Masywu Grochowej” (“Secrets Of The Mountain Makes It Possible To Determine”), by Zbigniew Rekuċ. In reviewing the article's references, it became clear that the book "Decknamenverzeichnis deutcher unterirdischer Bauten des zweiten Weltkrieges", edited by Hans von Wickert, held the key to verify or refute the article's claim. Fortunately, I actually have this book, so I poured through it very carefully to ferret out what I believe is the answer. Complicating the situation was that Rekuċ's article listed 2 underground areas both named Constantin, seemingly placing both of them in Poland. These were both found in Wichert's book. Here is the story: First off, Wichert's book uses archival material and thus can be relied upon. However, as I have said, one must be careful to distinguish between what was planned versus what was carried out. Just because something was planned or considered, doesn't prove that it actually went to fruition. Researchers that fail to understand the difference will create false history. The core of the book is data from a captured German document published by Foreign Office, German Economic Department, Foreign Documents Unit, Heddon House, 149/155 Regents Street, W.1., dated 26.6.45. The source given is MIRS, which was the Military Intelligence Research Section - a joint British and American program. The documentation quoted came from the Rüstungsamt Unterirdische Räume (Armament Office, Underground accomodation), dated 4.8.44, with a file number FD 3334/45. It consisted of 7 sets of lists as follows: "Set No. 1 deals with railway tunnels. Set No. 2 deals with road tunnels and bunkers. Set No. 3 deals with potash mines. Set No. 4 deals with stone and earth quarries. Set No. 5 deals with iron and coal mines. Set No. 6 deals with natural caves. Set No. 7 deals with military fortifications and bastions. (This set is incomplete and starts with page 3). The intelligence cover letter for this set of documents continues with: "Each list shows the following columns: 1) Name and location. The places concerned are not confined to Germany proper, some being in Austria, Czech-Slovakia and Holland. 2) Figures representing the area available. 3) Name of the producer firm for which the space is reserved. There are also some authorities mentioned such as State Library, Reich Patent Office, Archives, Museums and banking institutes. 4) Detailed specifications of the special products, manufactured by the firms mentioned under. 3), or of the valuables for which space is reserved. 5) Some abbreviations, either "SI" meaning Sichergestellt" (requisitioned) or VG S" (Vorg) meaning "Vorgesehen" (Reserved) or "GE" and "SP" meaning "Gesperrt" (blocked). Dates of these decisions are often added. The lists may be useful not only in view of the hints given as to the locations of hidden goods but also in view of the fact that they represent a survey of the different products of all war-important German firms and even of firms in Austria Czecho Slovakia and Holland." Unterirdische Räume, Section IV. Steine und Erden, Stand 5.9.1944, gives the following: "34) Name und Ort: Magnesitgrube Constantin bei Frankenberg (VIIIa) Verfügbare Fläche: 5,000 qm Firma: Krupp, Wüstergiersdorf Produkt: Stahlhomgurte Me 262 Bemerkungen: Sichergestellt 8.6." The other entry for Constantin oddly falls under Unterirdische Räume, Section V. Erz- und Kohlengruben, Stand 8.8.44: 28) Name und Ort: Zeche Constantin der Grube Bochum Schachtanlage I/II auf der 600 m-Sohle (VI) - Salamander Verfügbare Fläche: 200 qm Firma: Westfalia Dinnendahl, Groppel AG. Bemerkungen: Gesperrt 18.7.44" Now, Bochum is a city in the Ruhr, an area known for its coal mines. What we have here are 2 different mines named Constantin, but one is in Poland and the other is in the Ruhr, the latter code named Salamander. Note that the Armament Control districts are different for the 2 mines. That for the magnesite mine Constantin near Frankenberg is in Lower Silesien (VIIIa), whereas that for the iron or coal mine Constantin at Bochum (VI) is definitely in the Ruhr. A Google check shows the name Constantin intimately associated with Bochum, so I think we can discard this listing as relating to Constantin in Poland. Again, if you don't handle the evidence with care, you will be led astray. Another German source cited in Wichert gives the code names assigned to different places: "A.3 Alphabetisches Decknameverzeichnis unterirdischer Bauten nach dem Stand vom 15. Januar 1945, ausgefertigt vom Reichsminister für Rüstung und Kriegsproduktion, Amt Bau-OT, Amtsgruppe Technik. Alphabetisches Verzeichnis zur Objektnummer-Liste nach Decknamen geordnet (Stand vom 10.11.1944, ergänzt bis zum 15.1.45)* *Vorlage: Bundesarchive Koblenz R3/443, Seite 1-34. "Nachtrag vom 8.Januar 1945 Deckname: Salamander Objekt: Magnesitgrube Constantin Nr. 134" Whether the dual use of the code name "Salamander" for both Constantin mines was an intentional or an error on the part of who typed up these records, either German or English speaking, I don't know. Still further into Wichert: "E. Englisch-Amerikanischer Bericht über die INDUSTRIEKONTOR G.m.b.H. (German Underground Factories etc.) Evaluation Report 106. 15th. June 1945. Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee Target No. 28/5.55 INDUSTRIEKONTOR, G.m.b.h. (German Underground Factories etc.)" "A further list of underground sites, ownership of which had not yet passed into Industriekontor hands is given in Appendix II." "E.2 Appendix II The following is a list of further OT-underground undertakings in various stages of completion, but not yet transferred to the 'Industriekontor'. These undertakings are, therefore, known to the 'Industriekontor' only by OT-construction number and by code names: ... OT-Operational Group VII/Armament Control VIIIa (Niederschlesien) Construction No.: 54 Code name: Salamander" That both puts in perspective and wrings out all information in Wichert's book that deals with the magnesite mine Constantin. Based on E.2 Appendix II, we have that, while preparation work may have been in progress by the OT at the mine, it never went into production. This could explain the small POW contingent at the mine claimed by Krzysztof Krzyżanowski and Dariusz Wójcik, in their article in Odkrywca, 7/2009. Obviously, the Germans had an interest in possibly using the mine. This is supported by the sketch made on 12.6.44 of the second level of the mine, complete with German annotations. This was likely part of a survey that fed into the 4.8.44 compilation of possible underground storage or production spaces available to the Reich. The interest continued into at least 8.1.45. I should note that the Germans had a rather unique way of updating documents. They'd keep the same cover page and date, then add newer information to the end and keep doing so. Thus, the magnesite mine Constantin compilation of 4.8.44 was added to in a supplement dated 5.9.44. Had the mine actually been used to manufacture Me 262 steel wing spar caps, one would have hoped that some remnant of such would have been found by the inquisitive researchers that have delved into the mine. Nor was there any assessment of whatever equipment was found as to whether it would lend itself to such production. Finally, there is certainly the possibility of a bit of storytelling embellishment. It wouldn't be the first time. It's been an interesting investigative experience and I do thank all those who have tried to contribute to a resolution. Regards, Richard |
Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Hi Richard,
Great research! Thanks for sharing your findings and sources. Best regards, Leon Venter |
Re: When did the magnesite mine Constantin in Poland fall to the advancing Red Army?
Dear Leon,
Thank you for your kind words. Over the years, I've learned that it's best to get back to original sources, as authors can misunderstand them and end up creating their own fictional histories. While original sources certainly do contain errors, it is best to fully get the import of what is said, then use a judgment call when a conflict arises in what is being said. That judgment call should be as conservative as possible, with a frank "I don't know" sometimes being best. Regards, Richard |
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