"Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Dear All,

I just got a Zenith Press electronic flyer that showed this new book for sale. Amazon, however, says it is due for release on Nov. 15, 2013. Robert F. Dorr writes the "Washington Watch" column in Aerospace America, the flagship publication of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, of which I am a member. Dorr's column is quite informative about the latest Washington activities as they relate to aerospace.

That said, Zenith Press' description of the book makes me shudder:

"Fighting Hitler's Jets brings together in a single, character-driven narrative two groups of men at war: on one side, American fighter pilots and others who battled the secret “wonder weapons” with which Adolf Hitler hoped to turn the tide; on the other, the German scientists, engineers, and pilots who created and used these machines of war on the cutting edge of technology. Written by Robert F. Dorr, renowned author of Zenith Press titles Hell Hawks!, Mission to Berlin, and Mission to Tokyo, the story begins with a display of high-tech secret weapons arranged for Hitler at a time when Germany still had prospects of winning the war. It concludes with Berlin in rubble and the Allies seeking German technology in order to jumpstart their own jet-powered aviation programs. Along the way, Dorr expertly describes the battles in the sky over the Third Reich that made it possible for the Allies to mount the D-Day invasion and advance toward Berlin. Finally, the book addresses both facts and speculation about German weaponry and leaders, including conspiracy theorists’ view that Hitler escaped in a secret aircraft at the war’s end. Where history and controversy collide with riveting narrative, Fighting Hitler’s Jets furthers a repertoire that comprises some of the United States’ most exceptional military writing."

This apprehension is further reinforced by the table of contents:

"Contents

One The Air Show, November 26, 1943
Two “What’s a Pearl Harbor?”
Three Wonder Weapons
Four Twin-Engine Fighters
Five Wonder Weapons, Part II
Six Mustang Unleashed
Seven Rocket Science
Eight The Jet Plane Boogie
Nine Mustang Men
Ten The Underground Airplane
Eleven Natter
Twelve P-80
Thirteen Arado Ar 234
Fourteen Marauder Man
Fifteen Dogfights
Sixteen Supersonic Speed and Super Science
Seventeen The Air Show, Part II

Acknowledgments
Bibliography
Endnotes
Appendices"

Zenith Press sells this hardcover book for $30.00 while Amazon has a pre-release price on it of $22.20.

I haven't decided whether to buy it just to have it sit on my "Nowarra" shelf or let someone else buy it first and post a review.

Regards,
Richard

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Richard - Let someone else buy it first. The chances of anything dramatically new have to be slim.

Steve

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Another book on the subject seems to come out every year or so.

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

The title alone is enough to put me off.

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Same here. Fighting Hitler's Jets is enough. As a book editor, I would have axed the rest. This does not sound like a work with a scholarly tone but a marketing gimmick in book form. And if you're going to write a book about jets, just focus on the jets. Fer cryin' out loud. What were they thinking?

I'll pass.



Ed

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

I can't say I am to impressed with the title...

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Me neither, surely with a little more effort they could have worked in "Aces", "Secret" and "Eagles"?

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Do not blame the poor author for the title. I encourage you to blame the publisher in the absence of evidence of innocence.

Still, I cannot say that I have done much better on those of my books I got to title.

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Dear Nick,

Let me oblige:

"Fighting Hitler's Secret Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Aces Who Beat the Luftwaffe Eagles and Defeated Nazi Germany"

Regards,
Richard

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Reading the thread header alone brought on my advanced cringe syndrome. It took real nerve & courage to read thru the thread. :) I'll await the reviews on this one.
Steve.

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

"Extraordinary" looks a bit weak. Why not "hair-rising"?

☺

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

CJE, I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but, "hair-raising" means really scary in English. I am not sure that would be appropriate for a title like this. ;)

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

I think it needs "shocking" and "heartwarming" in there, just to cover every possible base.

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Sales would no doubt improve if it were called "Fighting Hitler's SS Jets : The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe's von Rommel Command and Defeated von Goering's Nazi Germany".

Or sumfink. But in any case, if it's about the 3rd Reich you have to namedrop the SS and Rommel. Goering is optional. Adding a 'von' makes it sound more evil.

All the best

Andreas

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Superlatives in titles is the new big thing. I think there are some foot soldiers, tank men and others that would take umbrage, but here, "American Airmen" defeated All Things Nazi... or something.



Ed

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Wasn't it more like 'American Airmen' defeated all things?

As the old joke goes:

When the Luftwaffe comes, Tommy ducks
When the RAF comes, Jerry ducks
When the US AAF comes, everyone ducks.

All the best

Andreas

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Dear All,

Okay, okay, we've had our fun. Just to show that a book series we all respect, i.e., the 4-volume Me 262 set by Smith & Creek, was also guilty of flagrant chapter titles, I give you the ones from Volume Two:

"This Aircraft is Simply Wonderful"
Me 262 Variants
"The Crucial Factor"
"My God, What was that?"
"In Accordance with the Führer's Orders"

Of the 5, only "Me 262 Variants" actually described plainly what the chapter was all about. You were on your own as to whatever the other chapters were about.

Dorr's book title is clearly flamboyant and undermines any hint that the book can be taken as a serious work. And that, in a nutshell, is the issue as we all do take our favorite subject matter rather seriously. I may end up buying it, not because I expect anything great, but simply because I have a pretty complete collection of Me 262 related books, some of which are even likely lower in self respect.

Regards,
Richard

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Actually, if you look back, the use of quotations as chapter headings has been one of their "signatures" back as far as 1982's Jet Planes of the Third Reich. Lesser authors such as myself have borrowed the technique since.

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Dear Nick,

I happen to disagree with this approach. A table of contents should be a guide as to where to find what. Use of snappy quotations doesn't do that. These are more amenable to works of fiction, not historical books where, not only should the table of contents provide a ready guide, but also help to use the book as a reference.

Chapter notes also add to the value of a book as a reference. These allow for double checking the author's interpretation of documents and whether these are primary sources or published works, which means a further layer between the book and the original documentation.

As a point of reference, take a look at the depth of investigation I went through to try to resolve the question raised in WOTBC, Number Seven, page 2, top caption as to its claim that the Me 262 mid/rear fuselages seen in the photo were manufactured near the airfield at Mühldorf. Lacking any further input from Jerry Crandall, I believe I have provided sufficient historical documentation to dismiss this claim. And, as I pointed out, even some of the historical documentation, itself, was misleading, at best. Getting to the truth of a claim is not necessarily an easy task.

The resulting problem lends itself to the game of telephone, one author quoting another quoting another, sometimes not even acknowledging the source. If lucky, one can go back to the source of it all and see if it is reliable. All it takes is a bad assumption or interpretation on the part of the author and the whole game of telephone begins.

Regards,
Richard

PS. After posting this the first time, I got to thinking that I sounded like a know-it-all. Gag, I'm far from it. Decades of collecting and understanding and I'm still learning. New evidence surfaces and I have to readjust my thinking. It definitely keeps me interested. I very much appreciate that I can come to my fellow researchers for information that I lack. You all have been immensely helpful.

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Depends what the author's aiming at, don't you think? You perhaps incline more to plumbing the depths of the manufacturing process, I'm most interested in what the resulting machines were used for and the people who used them.

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

I fully agree.
It's a brilliant teaser.
When I came to deal with the 8th AF early operations, my chapter title was: "Indians and Big Cars" (Dicke Autos).

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Ask US crews what they thought of the 900 km/h-passes at their B-17 boxes!
Were they not scary?

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

You can have a "quote" as a chapter heading and a sub-title to tell your readers what you will talk of.
That's the way I have been working for years and my readers like it. It's the strong brand image of my magazine which is the largest selling aero magazine in France (hopefully not for that alone...).

Chris

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

A recent issue "reviewed" for non-French speakers here

http://falkeeins.blogspot.co.uk/2013...ws-stands.html

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Dear Nick, Chris, and FalkeEins,

Nick, yes, I plumb the depths of information related to Me 262 manufacture and construction details. I have very little interest in the day to day fighting, although overall strategy is of interest to me.

Chris, at least you provide informative subtitles, perhaps a good compromise. A catchy title or quote, to me, raises a bit of a yellow flag making me wonder whether the chapter content can be relied upon as factual. Certainly, we'd have that doubt in our minds with the double whammy of fanciful book and chapter titles in Dorr's book. It is sort of "If the author can't present his work in a professional style, how much actual research went into it?" We are also familiar with finding errors in books which then makes us question the voracity of the work as a whole - the worm in the apple sort of thing.

FalkeEins, thank you for sharing the two reviews. They are direct and went to the meat in the issues.

The whole issue of book and chapter titles and magazine article titles can be looked at another way. I log into a binder every book I buy. Entries are listed by the author, title, publisher, and date. If I know the author as knowledgeable, that helps, and the opposite is also true. Titles of books on the Me 262 generally are brief and to the point, actually making one a bit more reliant on the author's credibility, as the titles are virtually all the same. Books where the Me 262 is only a part, have more varied titles and these are more important. Here are a number of examples where the title is informative and direct:

Der Fliegerhorst Neubiberg: Im Spiegel der deutchen Luftfahrtgeschichte

The Engineering of Flight: Aeronautical Engineering Facilities of Area B, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio

Nest of Eagles: Messerschmitt Production and Flight-Testing at Regensburg, 1939-1945

Die Illusion der Wunderwaffen: Die Rolle der Düsenflugzeuge und Flugabwehrraketen in der Rüstungspolitik des Dritten Reiches

Flugzeug Fahrwerk

German Guided Missiles of the Second World War

The Alsos Mission

The History of German Aviation: Willy Messerschmitt - Pioneer of Aviation Design

Flugerprobungsstellen bis 1945: Johannisthal, Lipezk, Rechlin, Travemünde, Tarnewitz, Peenemünde-West

Luftwaffe Over Czech Territory

Okay, "Nest of Eagles" is a bit flamboyant, but the rest of the title is descriptive enough to have an idea of what the book is all about. When it comes to magazine articles, though, some of the titles are off the wall and, if you tried to create a useful index of them, you'd be forced to add your own title to some of them to know what the article actually covered, which is not really the official article title, leaving you with a conundrum. As with the above sample books, a good descriptive article title is important.

Regards,
Richard

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

If I may add a comment, (BTW I like the "SS Jets", sounds like a Mel Gibson movie). Publishers have a LOT of control over things, more than most authors would like. This includes not only photos and maps, but titles and table of contents. It is not always up to the author(s).

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Happy to co-operate on the movie script. I am thinking of Tarantino to direct, Scarlett Johansson as the love interest, Hayden Cristensen as the SS Jet pilot, Ralph Fiennes as the Uebernazi in command of the SS Jets, and Joaquim de Almeida as the ruthless, get the job done, can't make an omelett without breaking some eggs USAAF squadron commander.

It's gonna be huge.

All the best

Andreas

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

If you can't lick 'em, join 'em. Such short memories. It's already been done. You don't remember "Red Tails"??? Bad case of amnesia here all around.

And as long as we're in a playful mood, name the movie where the jet factories at Posenleben and Schweinhafen were attacked in 1943. It was a good movie, but had its facts juxtapositioned.

Regards,
Richard

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

You had me worried for a moment, until I read this review:

Quote:

San Francisco Chronicle

Quote:

Amy Biancolli

Grit, that's what Tarantino will give it. And expletives, lots of expletives.

All the best

Andreas

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Hello Richard,

That was "Command Decision" with Clark Gable in the leading role, wasn't it?

Regards,

Paul Thompson

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

thanks Richard for the fascinating list of titles, at least two of which I hope to seek out. Schabel's " Die Illusion der Wunderwaffen " looks like it should be required reading for a certain category of Luftwaffe enthusiast; " one cannot explain the evolution of technology simply by looking at the technology.."

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

[quote=Richard T. Eger;174941You don't remember "Red Tails"??? Bad case of amnesia here all around.
Regards,
Richard[/QUOTE]

Don't think "Red Tails" got a cinema release over here. Can't remember what you haven't seen.

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Dear Paul, FalkeEins, and Nick,

Paul, you win for being the first to identify the movie as "Command Decision". I remembered it from a long time ago and recently purchased a copy. It was taken from a stage play and definitely had that feel to it in the movie. The movie came out in 1948. Early television drama was shown live from a studio stage and generally had that drawroom feel to it, as did this movie. William Wister Haines, who wrote the book in 1947, juxtapositioned Me 262 production into 1943 when much aircraft production was still centralized. To this, he added the real issue of daylight bombing lacking long range fighter escort and the fact that actual missions in this time frame without protection ended in unacceptable bomber losses. The Me 262, alias the Focke-Schmidt 1, was viewed as a major threat and thus a series of 3 missions to wipe out its production was laid on. Both the first mission to Posenleben and the second mission to Schweinhafen, done back to back, resulted in tremendous losses. To make matters worse, the bombers hit the wrong target and missed Schweinhafen, requiring a repeat run the next day. Enter the big brass fearful of how badly the huge losses would be received back home, with a nosey reporter added in to rub salt into the wound. The third mission, to Fendelhorst, needed to completely wipe out jet production, lay in jeopardy.

FalkeEins, I can assure you that Schabel's book is a must have. As I recall, he discusses the dichotomy of needing KZ labor for production and the stated goal of the final solution to eliminate Jews from Europe.

Nick, you didn't miss much. If you really get curious, you can probably buy it on DVD. It contained some of the poorest writing and hammiest acting I've ever seen.

Getting back to the movie, it was probably instrumental in my desire to know more about Me 262 production. As Haines presented it, it was a fascinating history. I wanted to know more. Haines played with history to dramatic effect, but the real history is just as fascinating, if not more so.

Regards,
Richard

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Where does it stand on the "Flyboys" scale? I bought the dvd of that secondhand for £2 ($3) — way more than it was worth, as it turned out!

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Nazis, can't even add 1+1 to arrive at 2. No surprises there at least. Plus ca change, ca change jamais.

All the best

Andreas

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

This thread is a hoot. And while we're all reminiscing about barf-inducing "historical" movies, who can forget the dreadful "Pearl Harbor" where Ben Affleck singlehandedly won the Battle of Britain, shot down numerous Japanese aircraft at Pearl Harbor and then was one of the Doolittle raiders. About the only thing they left out was Affleck being the top pilot of the Flying Tigers. They probably edited that part out. It's in the "director's cut" no doubt. The Axis forces never stood a chance.

Sorry, I've drifted mightily from the Me 262/jets subject of this thread, but if there had been a sequel...........

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Dear Nick,

Actually, I liked "Flyboys", especially Jean Reno as the father figure. It was a fun yarn and one had to just view it in that light to enjoy it. It was reminiscent of the between wars aerial combat films. On the other hand, "Red Tails" was supposedly trying to tell the story of the "Tuskegee Airmen", but painted them as caricatures. Admittedly, "Flyboys" was a take on the Lafayette Escadrille, but it never really took itself as an attempt to tell the story accurately, nor did I view it that way, while "Red Tails" tried to give the impression that this was truly a tribute to the 332nd FS and made itself a laughing stock instead.

Regards,
Richard

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Thank you, Richard.

I thought that the stage play approach was more succesful than many of the more expansive Holywood productions. Even "Run Silent, Run Deep", a similar film with Gable also playing the main character, suffers from some very dubious imitation of military equipment. It was interesting to see the main character fly off at the end of "Command Decision" to direct the bombing of Japan, a clear reference to LeMay, although the history is modified again.

While I was writing this, I realised I actually have a serious question about the Me 262, although I am not sure I should spoil the thread's frivolity :) I've sent you a PM about it.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

As an editor at a publishing company, we get to choose the book title, we get to choose the chapter titles and our authors know it. Without trying to disparage the decisions of other publishers, we have learned that certain titles produce a certain reaction in the majority of readers. We just know that from experience.

But, I've noticed a certain desire to take certain subjects and give them titles that just make my eyes roll. Did these airmen defeat Nazi Germany? No, of course not. A combined force of arms and other men were there. That kind of hyperbole is just selling something that isn't true. But I hope this doesn't become a trend. No, I don't want a dry title that sounds like a textbook, but think about what you're marketing. Were these airmen any more courageous or necessary in defeating the Nazis than those who did not face the jets? As the British say: "It's just like what it says on the tin." That is what I want. Accuracy in titles. I think that's reasonable.


Best,
Ed

Re: "Fighting Hitler's Jets: The Extraordinary Story of the American Airmen Who Beat the Luftwaffe and Defeated Nazi Germany", by Robert F. Dorr
 

Dear Ed,

If you want to sell a book based on a titillating title, then you are aiming toward the less knowledgeable while turning off the serious researcher at the same time. That's been the gist of what this thread has been about. The sample list of books I presented earlier are for the serious researcher, someone looking to add to their understanding of the whole history from various aspects and feeling that they can pretty much rely on what is presented as honest attempts at presenting the facts. The impression given by the book under discussion is just the opposite, thus the reaction of our research brethren. So, the publisher can decide between a tabloid slant or a serious slant. Of course, if the author has pre-ordained the direction by the book's contents, then the publisher can follow as his conscience dictates.

Frankly, if I were to write a book, I'd want to know darn well that the publisher would treat my efforts with respect. It would certainly be a decision factor in choosing a publisher in the first place.

Regards,
Richard