INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Does anyone have any info?

Thanks!

Mike

Re: Bf109G-4s WNr.15137 & 15121
 

Bf 109G-4 WNr.15137 “schwarze 2” of 2./JG 53 (Stammkennzeichen may have been DJ+BT) was pranged (35% damage) 3.April 1943 in a take-off accident at Tunis, found by the Britsh at Bizerta-Sidi Ahmed a month later.

Bf 109G-4/trop WNr.15121 of 6./JG 27 overturned during landing, 11.April 1943 at Trapani (Sicily), damaged 40%

GRM

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

1943-04-03, 2./JG 53, Bf 109 G-4, 15137, Fl.Pl. Tunis, Beim Start ausgebrochen. Bruch 35 %.

1943-04-11, 6./JG 27, Bf 109 G-4 Trop, 15121, Fl.Pl. Trapani, Überschlag bei Landung. Bruch 40 %.

Matti

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

VERY GOOD!!

I ask because this wing was found at Wright-Patterson Field (storage)...see photos.


http://www.me-109.com/g4wing.JPG

The numbers written above are written on the outside rib of the cooler flap (wing root area).

Are there any records of this aircraft being brought back to the US?

Looks like after the inital crash of 15137, the wing was salvaged and transferred to 15121...

Curious if there is any more history...



Mike

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Fl15137 is a part number not a wrknr

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

In this case, it is not.

As I mentioned previously, Fl. 15137 does not exist, and never existed as a part number (on any aircraft).

The RLM Flugzeug-Ausrustungsgerate part numbers started in the Fl. 18000 range, and nothing was made or existed before that.

In this case, the Fl. probably refers only to "Flugzeug".

;)

Mike

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Or relating to Flügel (I read this as "wing of 15137 transferred to W.Nr. 15121"). Here joining two (wrecked) to make up one flyable. Just a guess of course.

Furthermore, lots of the original and possible re-paint is simply gone. This is weathered away. So wing likely was stored outside for considerable length of time. I think if there was US star there, is likely weathered away.

See this image 2nd link below (I belive is from Wright Field) the Left Wing has been replaced. As complete Bf 109 novice, this strikes me somehow as related.

Note US Star still on the Right Wing. There also be one on left wing, per prewar standards, as these were often seen on captured examples - it was common to paint US stars on both wings, just to be shure it is noted?!

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...SAC/Bf109a.jpg

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0...rs/WTF-103.jpg

Here its US Star on Right wing too.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...2trop_full.jpg

Irmgard was "Black 14" (one source says W.Nr. 10605 ex-2.(H)/14 )

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Hey Ed!

Yes...that is how I took it as well...

Any US paint would have been over top of the cross...and there are no traces whatsoever of anything "but" German Sandgelb. This also includes the bottom of the wing, that has RLM76.

There are also no records of either aircraft having been flown or captured by the US...so my feeling is going more towards it being brought back as a spare wing...

WNr.15137 & 15121 - and 10605 ?
 

Ed,

The photos you linked are of a different machine, Bf-109G-2/R4/Trop WNr.10605, ‘schwarze 14’ of 2.(H)/Aufklärungsgruppe 14.

Flown by Lt. Wernicke, it was shot down 20.February 1943 on the salt flats near Zarsis, Tunisia by Bren gun fire from some of the Gordon Highlanders. Although injured, Wernicke escaped to the German lines. “Irmgard” was the name of first mechanic Uffz. Bopp’s girlfriend. This aircraft was restored to flying status by the U.S. 79th FG.

GRM

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Hi GRM!

I think Ed was just showing examples of a replacement wing with German cross being used on US bird...

;)

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

GRM, You are confused, I know, I am talking of the Apples not the Oranges ;-)

"Irmgard" indeed was W.Nr. 10605, that is not the point. The point is that it was at Wright Field, and has had an wing change. Photos in the links show it with "original" wing in Africa but photo at Wright Field it has sprung another wing, this one with "original" German marking.

More. In between tasks today, I have revued captured aircraft lists. Neither of them numbers on that wing appear in Trapani/Milo lists of captured examples.

Furthermore, we do not know at all when this transfer between planes happened. That could have been much, much earlier (than the GQM losses indicate), and one replacement wing could well have been on "Irmgard" after all!

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Not quite uninteresting would be the exact colour of the remnants of "dark brown" visible on parts of the wing.
...and of course to be compared with the "dark brown " of Fw 190 "White A"...

Regards

Roland

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

HI Roland!

Sadly, there are no dark brown areas on this wing...the dark areas are just shadows... :(

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

What is the plan for the wing? Is there a base museum?

Dave

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Hi Dave,

It is in a private collection (was removed from Wright in the 80's, saving it from being scrapped).

;)

Mike

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Oh, NM of the USAF is there at Wright-Patterson, Dayton, Ohio.
Yepp, smallish "base" museum!, and the base is (was) one of them largest ever.
"saved from beeing scrapped" may raise eybrows, hope not ... - Ed

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Oh that place- never heard of it :o

Nice to know the wing is secure - pitty it wasn't attached to the rest of the airframe.

Dave

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

I know of one person in Ohio, that own (part) rear fuselage nr tail ;-)
Find other wing, front/mid fuselage, tail group, engine, props, wheels and some cash. And suitable "W-Nr." plate. There you go!

Or better still. re-open production line. Already done with Fw 190, Me 262, Curtiss something ... and Yak.

-Ed

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

There is a group in Australia who are starting to build new full scale(lightweight) 109s.

http://new-messerschmitt.gportal.hu/

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

Quite simple .... none of this numbers were in Trapani at this time.

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

"No news" is the news then! (I have the Trapani captured aircraft lists)
Then where? Were they still flying untill what date?
As one had had an accident at Trapani, I was merely checking if (or is wreck) was there still when area was captured, some time in August 1943. Apparently it was not. Can you elaborate on your answer? -Ed

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

W.Nr.15137 was scrapped in Bizerta (like we know)
W.Nr.15121 was salvaged in Trapani in the first days of June 1943 and transported with an lorry to Palermo, from there it was send in July to Neapel and then transported to an factory for dismantling ("Zerlegebetrieb") in Germany

Re: INFO NEEDED on Me109 G4 W.Nr. 15137 & 15121
 

But this would significate W.Nr.15121 received the port wing of W.Nr.15137 most probably in Tunisia. Because W.Nr.15121 left Sicily to be dismantled, the wing must have stayed in the Mediterranean. Maybe attached to one of JG53´s Bf109s captured at Sciacca or San Pietro?

Regards

Roland