German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Hi,

I am looking for planes' losses reported by German units which were on the Bourges airfield, France at the time of a strafing carried out by several squadrons belonging to 354th Fighter Group (April 5, 1944). According to a list I have, an Arado of 3./JG 105 was lost and its pilot killed but it was not because of this attack. Several US pilots stated many Me110 destroyed on the ground. If there is a possibility to learn a little more about...


Best regards,
Frederic

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

5 April? The big raid on Bourges was on 10 April when 81 aircraft were destroyed or damaged on the ground (no Bf 110s). I have no information on a 5 April attack.

L.

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Frederic,

on 5 April the Allied fighter were active over Bavaria, at Öttingen 10 Bf 110 became damaged and at Neubiberg a further four (damaged and destroyed).

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

For the 354th Fighter Group this date, at Bourges the 353rd Squadron claimed 3 Me 110's damaged while the 356th Squadron claimed 2 Me 110's destroyed, a Me 410 destroyed, a FW 190 destroyed and a Me 110 damaged. At Chateaudun, the 356th Squadron claimed a Me 110 and Me 410 destroyed plus a Fi 156 damaged. Can not help at all on any German units involved.

Kent

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Frederic -

You probably already searched Google and have this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1Ku...201944&f=false

I can say with certainty that there were no Bf 110 units station at Bourges on 5 April, but it is always possible that some Bf 110s might have been passing through. It is even more possible that these were not Bf 110s but rather older model He 111s or Si 204s belonging to FFS B 15. In any event, it does not appear that any of these aircraft were lost or damaged at Bourges on 5 April according to the Gen.Qu.(6.Abt.) loss reports for the schools. Perhaps none were? Perhaps the 354th's claims were just that - claims? Or perhaps these were Si 204Ds built by the Siebel Flugzeugwerke K.G. at Bourges and were never entered into the loss reports because they were the property of the factory and had not yet been delivered to the Luftwaffe? The Si 204D could be mistaken for a Bf 110 because it was twin-engined and had a similar tail configuration.

L.

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Thanks a lot for all your answers. I have a copy of the FFS B 15 war diary and there are no entries regarding losses for that day. So Larry, you are perhaps right by saying that it was Siebel 204 (yes, they have a shape close to the Bf 110) from the SNCAC factory (for Societe Nationale Aeronautique du Centre) located near the airfield. In a report, a pilot stated that he made a pass over planes lined up (…not yet delivered I assume) which might confirm your thoughts.

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

The Bavarian losses on April 5 was solely 355th FG attacking Landsberg, Oberphaffenhofen, Ottingen. 8 air, 46 ground, 81 Damaged.

The 355th (354FS) hit Bourges on April 10 with claims of 5-0-10 on the ground

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Hello Bill,

Merci beaucoup for these additional details. The attack that day was carried out by 354th FG fighters and it strongly seems that all losses are planes from the nearby factory. For April 10, I have the full list...and what a list! (Bombing and strafing).

Warmest regards from France,
Frederic

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Bonjour Larry do you have the list (only number by type) of the 81 aircraft destroyed or damaged at Bourges the 10 april 1944 ?

Thank you very much

Alain

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Hi Alain,

Planes on April 10, damaged to varying extents.

JG 105:
Bf109 x 2 – Ar96 x 3 – W34 x 1 – Bf108 x 1 – Fw56 x 10 – Bu131 x 14 – Ar68 x 4 – Ar66 x 6 – Na57 x 10

FFS B15:
He111 x 10 – Ju52 x 1 – Fw58 x 12 – Si204 x 10


Regards,
Frederic

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Thank you very much Frederic

Alain

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Here is what I have, Alain:

10 Apr 44: bombed by 151 B-24 Liberators and strafed by VIII Fighter Command P-51 Mustangs – 10 x Fw 58s, 11 x He 111Ps, 2 x He 177 A-1s, 1 x Ju 52 and 6 x Si 204s from FFS B 15, plus 6 x Ar 66s, 4 x Ar 68s, 3 x Ar 96Bs, 1 x Bf 108, 2 x Bf 109Gs, 14 x Bü 131s, 10 x Fw 56s, 1 x Junkers W 34 and 10 x NA 57s from JG 105 destroyed or damaged on the ground, a total of 81 aircraft; also, 1 x Ju 290 A-4 from 1.(F)/FAGr. 5. According to French sources, there were many civilian casualties in Bourges.

These numbersw come from Gen.Qu.(6.Abt.) Verlustmeldungen for the Schools.

Cheers,

Larry

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Thank you Larry !

PS: I'm reading vol 2 of your book dive bomber and ground attack units of the luftwaffe it's very interesting, do you have a new book in this serie in preparation ?

Alain

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Sadly, no, Alain. I am too old now. But I do have several completed or nearly completed manuscripts that I may (no guarantees!) install on a Luftwaffe web site.

Cheers,

Larry

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Hi Larry,
Very interesting I had no idea, as you know I have a very frequented WEB-site.
bregds
SES

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

You bet, SES. Your site is excellent, and is best described by the outstanding quality of your research. I will definitely contact you when (or if) I decide to go ahead with this.

Cheers,

Larry :)

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Larry,
It would be an honor to host your material, and as you imply none of us are getting any younger.
bregds
SES

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Please SES what's the name of your website ?

Thank you very much

Alain

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

http://www.gyges.dk/ :)
bregds
SES

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

'Most of 8th AF strafing at Romorantin A/D (4th, 78th, 352nd). Only the 355th Strafed Bourges A/D after the B-24s dropped their bombs...

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Hello,

Yes, at Romorantin fighters were practically "bumper against bumper"! As the report said: “…there was considerable traffic congestion.” In addition, two Bomb Squadron of 2nd Combat Wing dropped their bombs on the airdrome, several aircraft having misunderstood orders. Tours, their primary target, was covered and on their way to Orleans-Bricy, secondary target, the Combat Wing flew over Romorantin. The 1./JG105, the German unit which was there, was wiped out that day.

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Allied claims at Romorantin seem to have been excessive on 10 April. Do you have the actual German losses?

10 Apr 44: bombed by 21 B-24 Liberators and strafed by VIII Fighter Command P-51 Mustangs and P-47 Thunderbolts – claimed 1 x Bf 109, 5 x Fw 190s, 1 x Hs 123, 2 x Hs 126s, 4 x Bü 131s, 3 x Bü 133s and 21 x unidentified aircraft destroyed, plus 1 x Bü 133 and 14 x unidentified aircraft damaged for a total of 52 destroyed or damaged aircraft.

Larry

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Bonjour Larry,

Amazingly on the list about JG105 losses, I have only this one for that day:
Bü-131 - WkNr 183 - 100% - Gef. ZOTZ Kurt (killed) - Crash following enemy shootings.
This seems a bit “light” compared to USAAF claims.

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Hi Frederic,

Yes, those 8th AAF boys must have been out drinking in the English pubs the night before! Here are my notes for Romorantin:

Romorantin (FR) (a.k.a. Pruniers) (47 18 N – 01 41 30 E)
General: airfield in C France 61 km SSW of Orléans, 6.5 km SW of Romorantin (Romorantin-Lanthenay) and 1.2 km SE of the village of Pruniers-en-Sologne.
History: a former French factory airfield occupied by the S.N.C.A. du Centre firm, which managed to evacuate all of the machinery prior to the arrival of the Germans in Jun 40. The Luftwaffe used Romorantin as an aircraft park in 1940, but by the end of 1941 this activity had been moved elsewhere and the airfield nearly deserted. It became active again in 1943-44 as a ground training base for Luftwaffe recruits.
Dimensions: approx. 870 x 1235 meters (950 x 1350 yards).
Surface and Runways: sandy soil on top of clay sub-soil that is unserviceable after heavy rain. Some drainage work had been carried out at the E end. No paved runway.
Fuel and Ammunition: fuel storage facilities existed.
Infrastructure: had 2 very large and 3 large hangars of the NW boundary with separate workshops to the rear of them. Barracks were behind the hangars and off the W corner. A light guage railway passed by the NW boundary.
Dispersal: the 2 areas – South and Perimeter – had a total of 24 large open aircraft shelters.
Defenses: there were 3 light Flak positions, one of which was tower-mounted.
Remarks:
24 Jun 40: German report this date gave measurements of 1000 x 800 meters and said it was ready for use as an operational airfield with accommodations for 600 personnel. A French air park had been located here.
20 Apr 41: employed 700 non-German workers, most of which were probably on the payroll of the Feldluftpark.
18 Nov 43: the surface of the landing area seen to be in poor condition.
3 Feb 44: airfield reopened after being obstructed to prevent use (Qu./Feldluftgaukdo. W/F).
10 Apr 44: bombed by 21 B-24 Liberators and strafed by VIII Fighter Command P-51 Mustangs and P-47 Thunderbolts – claimed 1 x Bf 109, 5 x Fw 190s, 1 x Hs 123, 2 x Hs 126s, 4 x Bü 131s, 3 x Bü 133s and 21 x unidentified aircraft destroyed, plus 1 x Bü 133 and 14 x unidentified aircraft damaged for a total of 52 destroyed or damaged aircraft.
19 Apr 44: landing area surface rough and in poor condition.
30 Apr 44: dive-bombed by a squadron of P-47s.
4 Jun 44: bombed by 72 B-24s.
Operational Units: none identified.
School Units: 1./JG 105 (Mar-Apr 44); Fluganwärter-Btl. V (Jun 42); II./Flieger-Rgt. 91 (1944).
Station Commands: Fl.H.Kdtr. E 10/VII (Aug 40 – Mar 41)?
Station Units (on various dates – not complete): Feldluftpark Romorantin (1940-41); Lw.-Bauleitung Romorantin (c.1940-44); Flieger-Geräteausgabestelle (Eisb.) 13 (Jul 40); Nebelsäure-Nachschublager 2/VII ( ? – Aug 44); RAD-Abt. 3/225 (Jun 40 - ?).
[Sources: AFHRA A5260 pp.2286-88 (19 Aug 43 updated to 19 Apr 44); chronologies; BA-MA; NARA; PRO/NA; web site ww2.dk]

I wonder if they made these claims for Romorantin but it was actually another airfield? Or maybe most of the aircraft claimed were wooden dummies?

L.

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Thanks for that, Frederic. It must be a mistake for one of the other airfields and quite possibly the date may be wrong, too. I checked my data base but could not find a match for either the German losses, date or Allied claims. So it is still something of a mystery.

L.

Re: German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome
 

Larry,

I thought of something: as the Stab of the I. Gruppe and the 3./JG 105 were at Bourges (while 2./JG 105 at Chateauroux), could it be possible that all planes damaged or destroyed that day at Romorantin-Pruniers had been taken into account by the Gruppe and not by the Staffel? I consider that losses reported as having occured on the Bourges airfield (…stated by Germans) are a bit "enormous". I may be wrong but it seems to me that for only a Stab and one Staffel, that is quite a lot of planes losses. Remember, claims for 355th FG (354FS) at Bourges on April 10 are 5-0-10 on the ground.

All the best,
Frederic