unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Hello,

a known photo from the ZG 26 and possible 3. Staffel is this:
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=1925
It is the "yellow 12".

Today I got photos from a member of the Geschwader "Horst Wessel" and it show the "yellow 11" with the same sign:
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7921

Are more photos known with that sign? I have attached a close-up from the sign. There is a crosshair and a bird with long legs and small wings visible...

Any ideas?

Regards,
David

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

The bird is taken from one of the original illustration plates of the German children's story "Hans Huckebein, der Unglücksrabe" by Wilhelm Busch (1832-1908).

Attachment 9536

Obviously with the addition of an MG ringsight it is known as the early emblem of 3./ZG26 also seen on their Bf110s.

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

I am fairly sure that this is a well-known abzeichen?

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Thanks Clint!!

I have checked Priens JFV Teil 2, there is on page 558 this sign with the drunken raven. But without the crosshair. But on the photos on page 553 and 555 is it also poor visible...
Looks like the drawing needs a correction. ;-)

I have only looked into JFV Teil 1 before, because the photos where taken before the 01.09.1939... 8-)

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Thanks for the pointer David,

and for the blow up.
Looking at Prien's there is no doubt that this emblem was, better, a "bad known" emblem and, I agree with you, it needs to be corrected.

Off topic but still in your Kaufmann collection:
That picture:
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7917

Vrba yes but in 1941, not 1940. Let say Mars- April 1941 and after when II./JG 27 was in operation down there ...
We are Lucky the attached photo of the same plane was offered in auction a couple of weeks ago.
We can see:
- II. Gruppe bar
- II./JG 27 emblem on the cowling on ground just Under the fuselage cross.
- Last, the spinner cap.
Since we are in 1941 it's most probably an E-7. 6./JG 27, Vrba 1941.
Done! :D

Tschüss, Franck.

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Great find, Franck! Full ack!
Prien gives three loss of Bf 109 E-7 (WNr. 4045, 1111, 5216) from the II./JG 27 at Vrba on the 06.04.1941 in JFV Teil 5. 2x 50% and 1x 60% damage during take off failure. I think this matches for the both planes... :)

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Hello,

You're welcome David ...
I don't have the JFV Teil V! A scan will be welcomed as XMAS gift! :D
Just a little thing: I wrote "after" i.e. at the time the photo has been taken, of course.

Thanks for the losses. At least this does confirm the "E-7" variant and the Vrba location.

Tschöö, Franck.

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Nervous break-down David?? :)

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

hello,

The same emblem appears in Ries: Luftwaffe embleme, photo collection, p 149.
The picture shows Bf 109 D yellow 9 with the " besoffene Rabe" ans crossair

BR
Marc

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Thanks Marc,
I think the same photo of the "yellow 9" is in the Prien book JFV Teil 2 page 555 with credit "Ries". The crosshair is poor visible...
Got Ries in his book also a drawing from that raven? And if yes, with or without the crosshair?

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

David,

As far as I can remember since I don't have the access to my books now, rendition of the 3./ZG26 emblem appeared in his first book on the LW emblems entitled Markings and camouflage systems of Luftwaffe aircraft in World War II from 1961*, and it was without the cross-hair.

In one of his later books on the subject, he published a close up photo of this emblem sported on a Bf110, with the cross-hair.

Probably because of a poor quality of the photo of a Bf109D-1 with this emblem, where he could not see the cross-hair, I believe that he was of the opinion that there were two variants of this emblem - with and without the cross-hair.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Hello,

This is a well-known emblem used by 3./ZG26 back to the beginning of the war. It was apparently on all the unit's Bf109D-1s as of that time, and photos are known of Y9+, Y10+, Y11+ and Y12+, carrying this insignia. The insignia published on P. 558 of Prien's JFV is incomplete, and should contain the cross hair as part of the emblem.

The evidence is that it continued to be applied to all the unit's Bf110Cs when the unit converted to that type during Oct-Nov, 1939. Many photos exist of that insignia on both sides of the noses of unit Bf110Cs over the next several months.

The unit's a/c continued to carry this insignia until July, 1940, when the new I Gruppe "Ringelpitz" emblem was introduced at the beginning of the Battle of Britain. There is at least one photo known of a Bf110 carrying both the old insignia and the new emblem at the same time, apparently taken when the unit's emblems were being revised during July 1940.

A very well known example of a 3 Staffel Bf110C carrying this insignia was U8+DL, WNr3011, of Fw Hans Reimann, who was SD and PoW in France on 10.05.40. Many photos exist of that a/c. Another example in the EoE Photo Collection is that of U8+KL, which was probably taken sometime in 1940.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Post #5 Franck, super sleuth! Thank you for the ID of Yellow 12.

Re: unknown Staffelabzeichen from Geschwader "Horst Wessel"
 

Hello Falke, Hello all,

great work many thanks !

Ruediger