3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

This photo: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7934 , offered in auction few days ago, has been resolved and rightly captioned after comparing the writings on back and Prien’s loss list.
Since it has been taken before the said accident (indeed) and since the man in background (just behind the right wheel) appears to be chest naked the photo has been shot most probably in September - at the beginning of – in a bright sunny day, and in Juliusburg.
Not in October – plane being lost – and not in Oedheim as it is wrongly described in Prien’s Teil 2, page 452.

Rote 5 or Yellow(Braune) 5?. Again, since the number’s colour is darker than the octane triangle background, Prien wrote it’s Red 5 adding that it doesn’t respect the “actual” rules since the number is black outlined instead of white!!! Well well well.
1- As quoted above the picture’s back writings are talking about 3. Staffel.
2- During the same bright sunny period this other plane http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=2935 as been shot in Juliusburg and is a true Red 5, number being white outlined, wearing 2.Staffel in white on fin and wearing “civilian stencils” (address and so on …) on fuselage.
You are free to think there was TWO Red 5 at the same time in the same place if you want or, better that one was lost and they repainted another Red … but this is doubtful.
3- Last, cherry on the cake, WNr.1078 http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=2939 – the following in the batch – was in 3./JG 77 too, at the beginning of September.

So, it’s not Red 5.

Now: Yellow or Brown?
We have very few exemple of 3./JG 77 machines during this time period. This present “5” (two pictures) The “8” displayed on same JFV Teil 2, page 452 (same story OK?? Not Rote 8) and this one: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4527
Still in Juliusburg by bright sunny day?? 
Peanuts.
Ah, yes a true but later “Braune 13”: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4978
I suppose the colour was indicated in RAF report, wasn’t it?

All these machines have a dark tone for the number while the octane triangle is clearer, especially for “5”.
Let’s say Dark yellow, orange, Braune … as you wish. But not Red.

It was my Little Brown Job chronicle to start 2014!!!

Cheers, Franck.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Franck,

This a/c is one of our EoE Color profiles being worked on right now representing 3./JG77 during 09.39 and the Polish Campaign. We've studied this a/c closely, and are certain that this is a 3./JG77 a/c and NOT 2./JG77. The latter unit used white outlines around their a/c numbers, as you've pointed out. I've concluded that the numbers on 3./JG77 aircraft from this period were either a dark yellowish-orange, or brown, as you've speculated. They aren't the standard yellow for sure.

We believe that this a/c was lost on 28 Sept 1939:

According to the EoE Luft Loss DB: 28 September 1939: "3./JG77 Messerschmitt Bf109E-3. Collided with a balloon and crashed near Merseburg. (FF) Lt Wolfgang Gadow killed. Aircraft 100% write-off. (NOT PC)
After the Polish campaign, I./JG77 transferred to Oedheim on this date under Hptmn Johannes Janke."

I've proposed an update to this entry adding "Brown 5" and W.Nr.1077 to this entry based upon the photo caption.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

100% agree with you Larry.
I wrote this thinking about your EoE Project and being (a little bit) upset by a "Rote 5" I received recently.
I thought it was necessary to put the things at their right place....

And, as I wrote upper there is not a lot of 3./JG 77 machines being pictured; BUT there is plenty of 2./JG 77 with their white outlined red numbers, full rows on parking and individuals as well.

Best Wishes Larry.

Regards, Franck.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Dear Franck,

I feel I have to apologize that 22 years ago, when JG 77 Vol 1 was published, I was mistaken to believe that this a/c belonged to 2./JG 77 - the owner of the photo, who let me copy it, belonged to that Staffel - and that it was taken after the return of I./JG 77 from Poland as the placement in his album suggested, and that with my erroneous caption I have misled a whole generation of trustful Luftwaffe historians.

With what we konw now there is no doubt that it was a 3rd Staffel a/c and it seems certain that it was the a/c with which Lt. Gadow crashed to his death.

But you see - we, or at least me for that, are always trying to learn and if one thing is certain, then that is that we'll never know everything but much rather will make mistakes as long as we study. By now I know of many more in all of my books. The only way to avoid this is to keep everything for yourself and not to publish anything until you know it all - which will never be.

Never mind

Jochen Prien

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Dear Dr. Prien, dear Jochen,

You don't have to apologise for a job which has been published times ago.
You did it with what you got; I'm perfectly aware of that situation.

You did a lot and still are doing a lot thanks for us, so please, do continue.
As you said if one stays waiting for the last minute correction, better doing nothing. I know that, we know that.

If you did feel hurt because of my comments, please forgive me.

It's just a signal - and an explanation - for those who aren't awake enough and still are spraying around wrong data as "definitive" truth ...
Let's say a blink ... or an LBJ like use to say bird watchers. And LBJ are the most difficult birds to name.

All the best for 2014 Jochen.

Tschüss, Franck.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Or publish it on the digital way and keep it up to date. ;-) Ebooks?

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

E-books are the way forward! In that way new material can be added and links to other e-books and electronic resources made.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Dear Dr Jochen

It seems the debate over the use of brown as a colour for Jagdwaffe numbers has reared up again. Over on LEMB a topic has reached 93 posts in a very short space of time with the proponents of either side entrenching with the speed of a WW1 sap. Gerhard has spoken of documents with proof which should be enough for most individuals however may I ask do you have an opinion on the topic? I believe you may hold the key to finalise the issue for most other then perhaps the most obstinate of individuals :-)

Best regards

Chris

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Not amused by this post, Chris, since I see it as a direct criticism of me in daring to ask Gerhard Stemmer for proof of his assertions.

Grow up, and understand proper research, will you...

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

I think you are being a just a tad touchy John, if anybody's not 'grown up' throwing their toys about its you. If you feel the 'criticism' is aimed at you then another proverb is due: If the cap fits wear it. Calm down please and be a little more grown up and let your anger disperse before posting.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Don't preach to me, Chris, and level accusations that don't hold water. I suggest you grow up in what you post, and stick to actual facts. Instead of a smokescreen of bullshit.

For the benefit of those members here who may not have read the thread on the other forum, let's look at what has occurred over on the other forum regarding brown numerals on 109s. Let's stick to facts as well, and not the hero-worship, adoration, of certain German researchers/authors that you have indulged in on the other forum.

Fact: Gerhard Stemmer listed a number of 109 units that used brown numerals, among them 3./Erpr, Gr. 210;
Fact: I asked where the information came from;
Fact: He said it was from GQM and NVM;
All the above was last Wednesday 15th January.
Fact: I posted that I had seen the GQMs from 1940 -1944, and I had a complete set of the Erprobungsgruppe 210 Namentliche Verlustmeldungen, and that brown numerals had never been mentioned in them. (Additional fact: had they been mentioned, I would have recorded the fact in my book on Erprobungsgruppe 210, 'Bombsights Over England').
Fact: Up to this morning, Gerhard Stemmer has not provided any further eveidence of his assertion that brown numerals were confirmed by either the GQM of NVM.

You know why, Chris? Because brown is not mentioned in the Nam Vers of either Lt. Horst Marx (PoW 15/8/40) nor Oblt. Otto Hintze (PoW 29/10/40).

Sorry if the truth hurts, Chris. Stick to historical facts, and not creeping to your heroes and believing everything they say.

Come back to me when you have something factual to say. About those two Erprobungsgruppe 210 incidents, for example...

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Not sure what the moderators think of your language and your bullying and hectoring tone but you don't impress me. Your rudeness does not require another post.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Sorry Chris, but you are the one denigrating me on here, and on the other forum. Do you think I will just take it, without reply? Think again. I don't take rubbish from people like you...

Not sure what the Moderators will think of you taking unjustified pops at me in your previous posts. You just don't like it when a bully like you is counter-confronted.

Stick with your German 'heroes'. I'll continue to stick with factual research... Best you don't post. You've got nothing to say on the subject!

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

John you need to calm down, let's stop this mud slinging which does you or I little credit. I apologise to you if my comment had upset you. My hope is that those experts in the Jagdwaffe will be able to provide you with the physical proof you require, perhaps when the dust has settled.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Chris,
I don't need to calm down. You comment didn't upset me. I am just surprised that you are prepared to accept what one person says on a forum without any supporting evidence to back it up.
The problem, and it is a problem for Gerhard Stemmer now, is that he blandly alleged that he had evidence in Namentliche Verlustmeldugen that 3./210 used brown numbers. Now maybe Gerhard Stemmer didn't know that I obtained a full set of Nam Ver from the Deutsch Dienststelle (WASt.) in the 1980s. I can even tell you the name of the person in the WASt. who handled the request for me, arranged the copies, and had them sent to me via Karl-Fritz Schröder - it was Frau Busekow.
I don't know what research you have done, or not, over the years.
But I do know this: there was no entry on the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen for both Lt. Horst Marx and Oblt. Otto Hintze showing they flew 'Brown 3' and 'Brown 6' respectively.

You see Chris, you can hope all you like that the physical proof will be provided. But with regard to 3./210, it's not there.
And here's the deal. If you want to see all the copies of the Nam Ver that I obtained from WASt., I will quite happily arrange to meet you in London on a date of your choosing and I will take you to the Archive where all my research papers are now stored and you can go through the lot with me:Erpr. Gr. 210 - SKG 210 - ZG 1. 1940 to 1944. If you are agreeable, let's fix it up. I'm retired, so my time is my own. I've got nothing to hide on this one. Happy to invest the time and money for you to see the lot. I cannot be fairer than that.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Thank you John a kind offer. Sadly I still work, 4 kids, own business, so it would be a problem meeting, as much as I really would like too

Courtesy of Clint on LEMB:

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...=2#entry114511

If not a member try this:

http://ww2.dk/misc/jg2loss.pdf

Check out page 6

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Chris,
I understand your work situation. However what I said in my last post is an open-ended offer, so if at some time in the future you have time away from your self-employment and wish to take me up on the offer of seeing all my research material, just PM me and we'll take it from there.

As you would expect, I have been keeping up with the discussion on LEMB.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

OK, guys, let's be cool about the personal comments.

These forums are not about ego(s) but our best research efforts and history.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Hi Guys,

I didn't remember this !!!
Well ... it seems someone did provide some original LW loss documents confirming that the word "Braune" is written on these documents. What's more?
This and what we can "see" on pictures must be enough to say that Brown was effectively in use for code numbers.

:)

Regards, Franck.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

... And to put my "document" contribution just find here Under one page kindly put here by Byron.
Read 17.) 15.JG 51 please.

Cheers, Franck.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Yes Franck, Jim P has very kindly uploaded original copied documents over at LEMB here: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...=2#entry115193

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

It would be nice to get a comprehensive list together confirming which units did use Braun with accompanying scans of the period documents if anyone can help.

So far the use of Braun confirmed on a primary source:

6./JG26 (loss: Aug 43) (Jim P)
9./JG54 (loss: July 43) (Jim P)
9./JG2 (loss: June 41) (Jim P)
15./JG51 (loss: Jan ??) (Franck)

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Note: I already had the losses given by Jim but without "documentation".
Good idea Clint.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Please also include these units from Gerhard's excel spread sheet list all of which he has extrapolated from the same original documents as Jim.

1./JG 51
12./JG 51
15./JG 51
16./JG 54
3.(J)/LG 2
3./ErprGr 210
3./JG 51
3./JG 54
3./JG 77
6./JG 26
7./JG 26
7./JG 54
7./JG 77
9./JG 2
9./JG 27
9./JG 54
9./JG 77
9./SG 4
ErgGr./JG 1
ErgGr./JG 2

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Still in the documentaion loaded by Byron:
Line 7.) 10.) and 14.)

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

16./JG 54 carried blue numbers, not brown.....never saw any proof of brown for this Staffel. Of course brown was used by several other units, that can't be the discussion?

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Yes Chris

this is exactly what I have except for JG 77 ...

47 entries in my (little list), including one WNr.1994, Braune 3 in EGr. 210, flown by Lt. Max Horst and shot down (Landed, crashed?) at Caterham, Sussex.
Don't have the document about that one ... But some good fellow has, for sure.

Regards, Franck.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

You know where I'm going with this Chris. In the interest of fairness let's just include units where we have been provided with actual examples of the period documents showing the mention of 'Braun'. It's not that I do not trust anyone I just think it's fair under the circumstances... That way it's totally transparent and we have the actual proof right in front of us.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

No fight John, no Fight!!
most probably an error on this one, I was talking about JG, not Staffeln. I doubt too for 16./JG 54.
AH there is a "RoteBraune" in IV./EJG 1. ....

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

I understand you Clint, but I have no reason to disbelieve Gerhard, just the opposite in fact.

We can add a few more units to your confirmed list thanks to Byron and Franck.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

It's not about disbelieving anyone. Nothing gets solved unless we all see the actual documents. We have respected researchers/authors on both sides of the discussion so it's only fair we have solid proof before we start labelling any units as using 'Braun'. :)

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Hi Clint,

Taken from the original loss reports:
- 05.07.43, 9./J.G. 51, braune 7
- 07.07.43, 12./J.G. 51, braune 13
- 10.07.43, 12./J.G. 51, braune 2, braune 4
- 13.07.43, 12./J.G. 51, braune 3
- 07.08.43, 3./J.G. 51, braune 5

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

I anderstand your point of view Clint and I think it's better and safer to follow that procedure.

Once again:

It will be good to get RAF reports too (For example ... That EGr. 210 Braune 3 shot down over GB!)

and

those famous CAR nobody wants to share!!!!

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Hi,

And from Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports:
FW 190 D-9 WNr. 210 086 rectangle + (rectangle orange brown) [7./J.G. 26]
FW 190 D-9 WNr. 500 647 4 + - (brown)

And those were all I could see in NA AIR 40/45.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.facebook.com/airwarpublications

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Thank you Andrew,

as explained by Clint, we want to see extract of the said original reports. The "fight" has been too rough those last days ...

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Andrew, thankyou for your input. If possible it would be ideal to see the report extracts. This will give us pretty much irrefutable visible proof that a primary period document recorded the use of 'Braun'.

The A.I.1(g) Report for Hintze's 3./ErproGr210 6+ down at Pluckley 29 October 1940.: No identification markings traced.

Bad crash, just a crater...

I think that's the only one that came down on land from 3./ErproGr210? If not let me know and I'll check.

Also with regards to the RAF (g, k) reports. Although interesting to note that they mention the use of Brown. I think for our list these reports are susceptible to possible human error. Well, what I mean is, it could be argued that the inspecting officer got it wrong for whatever reason. At least with the Luftwaffe sourced documents we have the colour recorded on an official document using the correct term as passed on by the unit the actual aircraft originated from.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

So now we have:

• 6./JG26 (loss: Aug 43) (Jim P)
• 9./JG54 (loss: July 43) (Jim P)
• 9./JG2 (loss: June 41) (Jim P)
• 3./JG51 (loss: ?) (Franck)
• 15./JG51 (loss: Jan ??) (Franck)

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Lt. Horst Marx down following the Croydon raid in the early evening of 15th August 1940. Marx baled out, so it is probable that his went in at great force. If I recall correctly, the RAF Intelligence bod wasn't even able to make out the fact that a bomb rack was fitted to the aircraft...

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Thanks John, sounds like the crash at Frant described as being "four miles south of Tunbridge Wells. No identification markings decipherable." Which is about where Frant is in relation to TW.

Re: 3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!
 

Clint,
Yep, Marx's 109 went in at Frant.