Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

According to this link it was KG-26... http://worldwar2daybyday.blogspot.co...h-18-1940.html

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Thanks for prompt reply, but it's not so simple.

It's generally accepted that Protinus was lost on 18 March, but as far as I know X. Fliegerkorps did not fly operations over the North Sea on that date due to weather. So sometimes date of loss given as 20 March, when they were flying. It was neither. Singapore newspapers of the period, which could be found online, published Reuter report about actions of HM submarines, which mentioned the rescue of survivors from Protinus by HMS Unity. From these date could be deduced as 19 March. One of these articles gives details of the attack on trawler, according to one of the survivors. He stated that the Dutch crew initially identified the aircraft as Allied and waved to its crew
The articles could be found here:
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Se...ler%20PROTINUS

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

The Naval History website also states KG-26 with the attack on 18th March... http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4003-12MAR02.htm

The Dutch crew could of easily misidentified the aircraft and believed it to be Allied until it attacked.

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

I'm aware of what Naval History site and other websites says. The problem with this is:

1) as far as I know KG 26 flew no operations on 18 March

2) When HMS Unity rescued the Dutch crew on 25 March, they stated they were in a boat for six days before being rescued (ie since 19 March) In the articles for which I provided link in my previous post the date of attack given as 'last Tuesday'. So one could open calendar for 1940 online and see that 19 March 1940 was Tuesday

I have no information about German anti-shipping operations over the North Sea (if there were any) on 19 March. [On the other hand RAF flew operations over Heligoland Bight on this date] That's why I'm asking. Nevertheless, thanks for the interest and ideas, any sugessions and information are welcome

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Hi,

no missions were flown by German units on 18.3. and 19.3.40 over the North Sea due to bad weather.

Regards

Robert

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Bad weather?
See http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/i/q/Mar1940.pdf

Jaap

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Robert, thanks for the confirmation. So apparently it was indeed RAF aircraft



Jaap, yes, bad weather. From your link:
...mild weather with occasional rain prevailed on the 17th local and 18th and squally showers and thunderstorms on the 19th...
and
Thunderstorms occured locally on the 18th-19th

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

This is what I have.

http://warsailors.com/forum/read.php...8948#msg-18948




Ed

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Hello!

Not sure if this has any connection with the Protinus, but German Naval Staff war diary (English translation!) for March 20th, 1940 writes:
(North Sea)
"Air reconnaissance led to various brushes with British trawlers on the Dogger Bank. One trawler was obviously sunk by a hit in its vicinity."

See:
https://archive.org/stream/wardiaryg...e/126/mode/2up

The war diary is not clear when the incident happened. May have been late 19th March, too? Original German diary may be clearer.

The diary also describes the RAF attacks on 19th March.


Cheers,
Kari

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Kari,

This incident may be in connection with Protinus. But there is some points, which led me to think it was not.

1) these were indeed brushes with British trawlers, and one He111J of 3./KuFlGr 806 was lost to AA fire as a result. The German crew was rescued by Dutch motor-cutter the same day, which means there were enough ships in the vicinity also to rescue the crew of the trawler the same day, if it was lost on this date

2) 3./KuFlGr 806 claimed only a near miss, as KTB SKL says, so trawler 'obviously sunk' is more a wishful thinking. And it contradicts survivor's account which stated that attacking aircraft achieved direct hit on the bridge.

3) from survivor's account, the date of loss was 19 March

So evidence on hand is not enough to state Protinus was sunk by 3./KuFlGr 806. Until aditional information surfaced, it looks far more probable to me that Protinus was sunk by British aircraft

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Hi,

KTB of 3./806 mentions two attacks on English fishing ships but no direct hits were observed. One ship was probably hit.
One crew observed some ship`s remains with 1 survivor.

Regards

Robert

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Robert, many thanks!

It seems we can completely rule out this action by 3./KuFlGr 806 as the cause of loss

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Dutch newspapers of that time also give conflcting accounts. In one article in the Leeuwarder Courant of 30-03-1940 one can read that according some crew the trawler had hit a mine. After having abandoned ship and after three days the fishermen were strafed by a German airplane, resulting in two dead.

And on 01-04-1940 the Oprechte Haarlemsche Courant gives another version, also according some of the survivors. The trawler was bombed by a German airplane, with two dead, while two more succumbed in the lifeboat. Here no mine and no strafing....

Interestingly, in this latter newspaper the crew described the noise of the bomber as a "shrill, whistling sound". Then it returned and made an attack in a "almost daredevillish, steep dive" The bombs missed, but two 30-cm bombs of the second attack, again in a steep dive, hit the steering house, killing two fishermen. The other crew never saw them again.
Date and time is given as 20 March 1940 and around 17:30 hrs. when the crew saw the airplane appear. At first the crew paid no special heed because it had happened before that aircraft had flown over. But this one circled the trawler some five times before commencing the attack in above mentioned fashion.

I'm no expert on German airplanes, let alone that I'm familiar with this case, but the combination of a high pitched sound and a steep dive may point to a Ju-87?


Regards,

Leendert

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

If this was on 20.3.40 the ship would be sank by He 111 of II./KG26:
German report states that at 18.50 hrs a French fishing ship was attacked in LQ 05E/4872 and hit with one SD50 bomb.

Regards

Robert

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

According to the KTB of Seenotzentrale (Luft) Nord no missions were flown by X. Fliegerkorps on the 18. or 19. March 1940 due to weather conditions.
The only exception was a weather aircraft on 18.3.40. Also seaplane operations were limited due to the ice condition in the North Sea off the coast of Germany.

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Ju88 was the only German type operating over the North Sea at the time capable to perform something of a kind

Robert, do you have further details? As far as I know on 20 March both I./KG 26 and II./KG 26 operated against British convoys between Norway and Britain far to the north. British naval trawler Windermere was damaged by bomb north of Kinnaird Head in this action. I've translated the page below using google, so, if I'm not mistaken, it gives the location as 51N
http://www.scheveningen-haven.nl/inf...ijst=50&af=IJM
I know that single aircraft of KGr 100 and KG 26 sometimes operated over the area around 51N in March, and French nationality of a trawler under attack could be a clue. Interestingly, and to complicate matters further, it shows the date of loss as 20 March, but says the crew was rescued six days later, which, knowing the date of the rescue was 25, means the loss was on 19 March

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Just for the record, another trawler from IJmuiden (Erin, IJm. 12), reported a strafing by a multi-engine German aircraft on 17-4-1940 (16 hrs.) at 58.50 N and 2.20 E. The captain was absolutely sure it was a German a/c, having noticed the swastika on the vertical stabilizer. No injuries were sustained by the crew.
Although not thread-related, it gives an impression that the fishing vessels of (then still) neutral countries also had every reason to watch out.

Source: article in the 22-04-1940 issue of the Amsterdam newspaper Het Nieuws van den Dag.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Position 58.50 N, 2.20 E is the area roughly between Peterhead and Stavanger, certainly a hot spot during the Norwegian campaign. Back to Protinus, area around 51 N is roughly the area between Thames Estuary, Scheldt Estuary and Pas-de-Calais. If the position mentioned is true, it's unusual area for Luftwaffe anti-shipping operations at the time, although there were few. And it also makes the possibility of the attack by Allied aircraft highly improbable, as any surface craft sailing in those waters in March 1940 was almost certainly Allied or Neutral. With any evidence lacking, that version with the mine is also worth consideration. So, at present, the case is beyond solution

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Hi Andrei,

I have no further details.

Regards

Robert

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Robert, thanks!

I have a fresh re-think of the whole of this today's morning. Actually I worked out what was the map reference you provided in your previous post with use of the excellent LUMA converter. It gives the position of this map reference roughly 57.14N 4.11 E (ie eastern North Sea between Denmark and Norway but far from the coast of both). And this position to the north even of Dogger Bank, but also far to the east from Moray Firth - Kinnaird Head area where Windermere was attacked.

Many thanks to Leendert for providing information regarding attack on another Dutch trawler in April. It became clear, that for some reason trawlers from Ijmuiden regularly sailed in those waters (both attacks in March and April were not far from each other). And this area is right on the way of inbound/outbound He 111H's of KG 26, attacking the convoy on 20 March. And it also explains why the crew of Protinus, was not rescued for so long, as this position is pretty far from land and shipping routes.

And so the puzzle is complete. Protinus was almost certainly sunk on 20 March 1940 by He 111H of II./KG 26

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

Hello, just pinging this thread in case something new has emerged during the last 6-7 years. Currently the Internet is still divided for the date of the loss between 18, 19 and 20 March.

https://mass.cultureelerfgoed.nl/protinus-ijm85 shows a location NW of Dogger Bank for the loss. In this location, a German air attack is far more probable than an Allied one, especially as the aircraft turned around the ship before an attack (no possible confusion with an U-Boote).

Also the fact that the Luftwaffe reported an attack on a French trawler is probably due to the fact that Dutch and French flags use the same colors, respectively horizontally and verticaly.

The names of the four casualties are listed in this article: https://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/vi...earch=Protinus. I hoped genealy websites may help with the death date, but the master, Klaas Wijker, is listed to have died on 15th March at https://www.genealogieonline.nl/fr/g...raam/I8724.php....

Found also one wounded, death date listed as 23 March: https://oorlogsslachtoffersijmond.nl...etrus-voorting

The article below, dated on 1 April 1940, describes with details what happens and gives the date and hour of the attack as 20 March, 1730 hrs. The article where a mine is evoqued was IMHO written before, when the ships was still missing. You can see one such article listed with the www.genealogieonline.nl webpage above where the whole crew is listed as missing, while we know there were survivors, so my guess is that this article was written before the loss and the news that there were survivors. As HMS Unity returned to base from her patrol on 30 March, it is probable that it was only on this date or the day after that the news were given, so explaining the article in the DUtch newspapers on 1 April.

By the way the death dates on www.genealogieonline.nl after a new search:
Klaas (Jacobsz) Wijker: three pages, one says 15 March, two 20 March
Gerardus Petrus Voorting: 24 March (above link says 23)
No trace of the other casualties.

As for the Unity rescuing the shipwrecked on 25 March after 6 days, an explanation might be that this was the 6th day they were on their lifeboat (20-21-22-23-24-25) especially as the survivors and the rescuers did not speak the same language, hence the confusion in report.

Why the date of 18 March appears in so many documents I have no idea, but it seems to me that sources from 1940 (Luftwaffe reports, Dutch article) point to 20 March being the right date.

Re: Who sunk Dutch trawler Protinus 19.03.1940
 

I have no Luftwaffe shipping claims between 17 and 20 Mar 40 and the one on 20 Mar 40 was east of the Orkneys

Dutch or French flag ?
 

Laurent wrote:

"Also the fact that the Luftwaffe reported an attack on a French trawler is probably due to the fact that Dutch and French flags use the same colors, respectively horizontally and verticaly."

Laurent beat me to the draw (congratulations) for I was about to write precisely this.

Most people including soldiers have only very vague ideas about foreign flags. Unless they give very precise details like "horizontal stripes" such information should be handled with care. At the time (March 1940) there were ships and boats from several countries around: German, British, Dutch, Belgian, possibly Danish. French boats are less credible so far from their own country and ports.