242 RCAF in BOF
 

Hi
Any close pic of 242 Squadron hurricane 2 or 3 blade prop ,base near rennes around 15 of june 1940 , Rec said Noel K Stansfeld was one of them ,landing is a/c in a ditch near the village of Blain , any pic of this plane will be a must..... thank you

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Hi

No picture but Brian Cull's FIRST OF THE FEW has a good account of 242 Squadron RAF (not RCAF) in France.

Cheers
Brian

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Well
On 3 nov 39 Squadron leader Fowler Morgan Gobeil receive the first of his new command 242 Squadron air crew in the form of his 2 flight commanders. They were flight lt Donald R miller of Saskatoon , Saskatchewan and John L Sullivan of Guelph,Ontario .Both of whom had joined the RAF in 1936...These two were soon followed by flying officer John W Graaffstra of Souris , Manitoba and pilot officer Robert D Grassick of London Ontario....
On 6 nov 39 the squadron was deluged with new air crew arrival,the vast majority of the unit's initial complement.
F/O Lorne E Chambers of Vernom,British Colombia
P/O Marvin K Brown of Kincardine ,Ontario
Arthure H Deacon ,Dale F Jones ,Hugh L Niccolls ,Joseph B Smiley and Rusell H Wiens, All prairie boys from Sasskachewan. John B Latta of Victoria ,British Colombia , William L McKnight of Calgary, Alberta Donald G McQueen of High River ,Alberta
Garfileld A Madore of Fort William,Ontario and James W Mitchell from Winfield ,British Colombia.
The next days brought F/O Richard Coe of Winfield ,British Colombia, and finally on 20 nov the last 3 of initial cadre of pilot reported:P/O James F Howitt from Guelph,Ontario
Percival Stanley Turner from Toronto,Ontario and William A Waterton from Camrose,Alberta
So all Canadian squadron here...
On 14 may F/L Sullivan with P/O Grassick , McKnight and Turner in tow as 242's contribution to the reinforcement effort , was sent to Vitry en Artois...
they return to Britain on 19 may for week 's leave and rest

On 17 may as part of new deployment plan "A" flight of 242 squadron was send to Lille/seclin commanded by F/L Miller and consisting of F/O Chambers and P/O Brown , Deacon , McQueen and Wiens

In a brief two day of combat , the flight had lost almost half their number , one KIA and other wonded , though their loss rate was generally representational of other RAF Hurricane squadron on deployment.
During their next visit to France, things would be significantly different .They return to England on 20 may
On 21 may ,along with Gobeil and the rest of 242,who were on stand by at Church Fentom were ordered forward to RAF Bigging Hill. 242 Squadron add its first offensive patrol on the 22 with 2 confirmed kills
In late june 242 was regrouping at Coltishall in Norfolk ,Squadron Leader Gobeil return to Canada
On 24 june RAF Squadron Leader Douglas Robert Steward Bader arrived to take command of the Squadron

Like you can see many of RAF unit s was in fact Canadian and other commonwealth country unit's , sometime lead by RAF Squadron leader as J E (Johnnie) Johnson who was leading a other well know Canadian Squadron and even Canadian Squadron leader leading all british RAF unit's...Even at the beginning of the war the RAF unit's was a amalgam of many country......... 242 Squadron was most of the time 80 to 90% RCAF
Cheers
Eric
National Defence RCAF
CFB St Jean Qc Canada

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Some of the other Familiar name --- RCAF UNITS in RAF

Day fighter
401 squadron 402 squadron 403 squadron 411 squadron 412 squadron
416 squadron 417 squadron 421 squadron 441 squadron 442 squadron

Night fighter
406 squadron 409 squadron 410 squadron 418 squadron

Recon squadron
400 squadron 414 squadron 430 squadron

Fighter-bombers
438 squadron 439 squadron 440 squadron

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Doesn't matter how many Canadians were in the squadron, it still doesn't make it a RCAF squadron.

Only the 400 - 449 squadrons were RCAF.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Yep sound better in British record , It was a brilliant way to hide the true history , also the main resson why this was corrected later.....

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Hi VonWaffen (it would be nice to know your name)

Just what point are to endeavouring to make?

Cheers
Brian

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Since we are plugging books might as well add Hugh Halliday's excellent book on the squadron, "Tumbling Skies". If you haven't already VonWaffen, check it out. Copies should be available in Quebec.

Stephen

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Hello,

Wrong book Mate! Hugh Halliday's book on No.242 squadron, is:

No.242 Squadron The Canadian Years:The story of the RAF's 'all-Canadian' Fighter Squadron.
Halliday,Hugh.
Stittsville:Canada's Wings,1981.

Col.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Load of rubbish.

242 was 242 Squadron RAF.

As was 303 Squadron.

If you want an example of how things really were in 1940, take the following: There were TWO No.1 Squadrons in RAF Fighter Command. No1. Squadron RAF, and No. 1 Squadron RCAF. No.1 Squadron RCAF was a Canadian-constituted squadron sent over to supplement RAF Fighter Command.

So no hidden agenda, no 'hiding the true history'. If you're going to post on here, don't try to feed people in the know a load of rubbish...

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Well ,Brian to be honest I Was just trying to get a pic ,
Sorry if someone get hurt knowing it was Canadian personnel , what"s that make how I call my topic ???
by the way my name was write down under my first answerd

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

No, I think we got hurt because you don't understand history. If you know more about this "hiding the true history", please share it. The rest of us missed it.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Col Bruggy,

Whoops! Thanks for the correction. Either way, Hugh got a plug for two of his books.

Stephen

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Here his What really apen.....

When Great Britain declared war on Germany on 3 september 1939 , there were over 1.000 Canadian aircrew serving on active duty with the Royal air force.
They ran the spectrum of service time: some had remained with the RAF since the great war and were now relatively senior , other had joined in the 1920s
and were in intermediate ranks,while the vast majority had arrived on Britain's shores from 1935 onwards. Their reasons for enlisting were similarly diverse.
Some undoubtedly saw little service future in the minuscule Royal Canadian Air Force of the 1930s and others must have been caught up in the patriotic fervor
of rearmament and the looming fascist threat.However , the majority were most likly driven by a compeling sence of advanture would keep them away from Canada.
Many would not return for a great number of years:far to many would never return.

A small cadre of eighteen regular RCAF officer were also serving in various positions on exchange duties or on courses at the commencement of hostility.
One of them , Squadron leader Fowler Morgan Gobeil, an articulate Royal military college graduate and experienced pilot, would be chosen to lead 242 Squadron ,
The first distinctively Canadian fighter unit within the RAF.
To appreciate the nature of official Canadian representation in the RAF after the declaration of war by Canada on 10 september 1939, one must understand something
of the prevailing national sentiment. In may 1939, King George VI and the Queen Elizabeth visited Canada, making the first time its reigning monarch had toured the
country. Their quiet courage in the face of the impending threat moved the nation , stiffeenning the resolve of its citizens to help resist fascism in Europe.
Canada had an equal resolve, however, never again to respond blindly to arrogant, almost contemptuous assumption of support from Britain, as had occurred during the
First World War. Canada had written her national identity in the blood of 60,000 war dead , and justifiably felt that she had earned the right to relative
autonomy from Britain in foreign-policy decisions. That feeling was perhaps best exemplified by the nation's declaration of war on Germany on 10 september....
a full seven days after that of Britain.
The RCAF 'S 242 Squadron owes its origins to the Canadian Gouvernement's nationalistic desire to be represented by a distinctly Canadian unit at the earliest
possible time after the outbreak of war. Since no RCAF formation were in a possition to deploy immediatly, the most logical solution was to cull suitable
Canadian members from existing RAF units and holding pools and use those men to form a separate squadron. In fact, the British governement was very pleased
to have distinctively nationalistic Dominion squadron serving withing the RAF , viewing them as an excellent gesture to the world , particularly the fascist world
of Commonwealth solidarity.19

That view, formally presented by the British Air Council to the governements of Canada , Australia , and New Zealand on 26 september 1939. Set in motion a chain of events
which would culminate in the formation of a new squadron a little over a month later. The British Foreign Office was particularly enthousiastic about the
Propaganda value of a Canadian RAF squadron, and especially in foward deployment to the continent. Accordingly , 242 Canadian Squadron came into being at Church
Fenton, under the command of Squadron Leader Gobeil, on 30 October 1939.
The British governement had make the mistake, however , of assuming that, even given the substantial contributions in termes of fighting units that would be made by Domonions ,
the RAF would be the commun service instrument for operational procedures , chain of authority , code of conduct , anddisciplinary procedures .

In mid December 1939 ,the Canadian minister of National Defence submitted a memorandum regarding the establishement of the British Commonwealth Air training plan.
The memorandum state , that Canada after consultation with Britain, would be permitted to establish Canadian units and formations overseas. Furthemore, these units and formations
would subsequently be designated as elements of the RCAF ,in accordance with RCAF regulations, procedures ,and chain of autority.

The British governement immediatly reputated this proposition, stating that it was beyond the terms of the pending BCATP agreement. Nonestheless the Canadian gouvernement
held firm, and prime Minister Mackenzie King was adament that Canadian agreement to host the BCATP was tied to the proviso.

Canada wound not proceed further unless her sovereign rights were observed and respected. After further negotiations which reworded the Canadian view slightly but not in
sovereignty implications , the Chamberlain governement relented and signed the BCATP into being , paving the way for full RCAF unit participation as element of the RCAF
later during the war......

Now anyone got those pic lolll
Amicaly Eric

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

OK, Eric

I think we get your point - however it still doesn't make 242 Squadron an RCAF unit by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, 242 Squadron operated throughout the war, often, I would assume without any Canadian members, RCAF or Canadians in the RAF. It ended its days as a transport unit.

Cheers
Brian

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Eric,
Notwithstanding your very long post, the fact is 242 Squadron was RAF, not RCAF. As I pointed out in my previous post in this thread, the only squadron with the RCAF title in Fighter Command at that time (Battle of Britain) was No.1 RCAF.

It was not out of the ordinary to group nationalities together. Look at 302 & 303 Squadrons in 1940 (albeit with the odd top scorer of another nationality included!). The trend was increased post-1940.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

The point is all Canadian Squadron even with the RAF appellation was in fact establish by RCAF , pay by RCAF , and the Propriety of RCAF as a sovereign country and in any way the propriety a Britain , even at the beginning of the war.. Do the appellation Canadian squadron... Even if some call them RAF , they are no mistake to call them RCAF at all

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

The point is a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. What source(s) have you consulted? Please let us know.

To quote from The Crucible of War, 1939-1945, The Official History of the RCAF Vol.III

"Meanwhile, the Air Ministry took advantage of the 'phoney war' to set about organizing eighteen additional squadrons. One of the eighteen was No.242 (Canadian) Squadron, RAF. Formed at Church Fenton in Yorkshire, it was the result of a public-relations exercise benefiting both the Canadian and British governments." p.171

"…and when the legendary Squadron Leader Douglas Bader took over command from Gobeil on 24 June 1940, No. 242's last link with anything formally Canadian was cut." p.172

There's nothing more to it. King wanted the squadron to become an RCAF outfit but Air Ministry would have nothing of it.

Stephen

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Was the whole compliment of 242 Squadron Canadian or was it just the pilots?

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Maybe we should rename 609 Squadron '609 Squadron plus 1/3 USAAF' once the three American pilots joined during the Battle of Britain...

Of course there is pride in national identity, but it suddenly did not make a whole shoal of RAF fighter squadrons in 1940 to be 'less RAF', or 'non-RAF'. Honour titles were given to many RAF fighter squadrons in 1940, not just (Canadian). How about 303(Kosciuszku), or 302 (City of Poznan), for starters...

Stop trying to re-write history, VonWaffen. It's pathetic what you are trying to do...

I will reiterate. Read this carefully. There was only ONE official Canadian squadron with Fighter Command in 1940, and that was No.1 RCAF. There were MANY nationalities flying in Fighter Command at that time.

Not difficult to grasp, really.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Ok Here some explanation about RCAF
The first RCAF formation coming from Canada to set foot in the UK was not number 1 but Number 110 Army Cooperation Squadron under squad leader W.D.Van Vliet on 25 feb 1940 , a second army Cooperation Squadron Number 112 arrive at the end of may...
The number 1 (RCAF) Squadron under the command of squad. leader E.A McNab disembarking on 20 june..coincidale with the fall of France..
Number 1 Squadron consisting of 115 auxiliary Squadron of Montreal merged at the outbreak of the war with Number 1 .
They were Canadian Permanent Force Squadron and not Oversea unit.
Number 1 is a early squadron numbers who have a history going back to the post-First World War Canadian Air Force which disbanded in 1920. These units were formed after the creation of the RCAF in 1924.
The 100-series squadrons
Established in Canada in the 1930s most of these units were either disbanded or reassigned a 400 series number for overseas service

The 400-series squadrons
During the Second World War, the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan set out co-operation between the various British Commonwealth air forces. Under Article XV of the plan, RCAF squadrons were attached to and/or formed within British RAF operational formations. These squadrons were known as 'Article XV squadrons'. To avoid confusion with squadron numbers of other Commonwealth squadrons, RCAF units were assigned squadron numbers from 400-449. Not all squadrons up No. 449 were formed, however. This squadron series continued through the post-war years, and the majority of current Royal Canadian Air Force operational squadrons are still numbered in the 400s due to their legacy as wartime units. For this historical reason current squadrons are listed here with their original RCAF names.



No. 400 Squadron RCAF
No. 401 Squadron RCAF
No. 402 Squadron RCAF
No. 403 Squadron RCAF
No. 404 Squadron RCAF
No. 405 Squadron RCAF
No. 406 Squadron RCAF
No. 407 Squadron RCAF
No. 408 Squadron RCAF
No. 409 Squadron RCAF
No. 410 Squadron RCAF
No. 411 Squadron RCAF
No. 412 Squadron RCAF
No. 413 Squadron RCAF
No. 414 Squadron RCAF
No. 415 Squadron RCAF
No. 416 Squadron RCAF
No. 417 Squadron RCAF
No. 418 Squadron RCAF
No. 419 Squadron RCAF
No. 420 Squadron RCAF
No. 421 Squadron RCAF

No. 422 Squadron RCAF
No. 423 Squadron RCAF
No. 424 Squadron RCAF
No. 425 Squadron RCAF
No. 426 Squadron RCAF
No. 427 Squadron RCAF
No. 428 Squadron RCAF
No. 429 Squadron RCAF
No. 430 Squadron RCAF
No. 431 Squadron RCAF
No. 432 Squadron RCAF
No. 433 Squadron RCAF
No. 434 Squadron RCAF
No. 435 Squadron RCAF
No. 436 Squadron RCAF
No. 437 Squadron RCAF
No. 438 Squadron RCAF
No. 439 Squadron RCAF
No. 440 Squadron RCAF
No. 441 Squadron RCAF
No. 442 Squadron RCAF
No. 443 Squadron RCAF

The 600-series squadrons

During the Second World War pilots who served in the 600-series RCAF squadrons were recruited from the Royal Canadian Artillery in England and Italy, and trained to fly at 22 E.F.T.S. Cambridge (England), completing their operational flying training at 43 O.T.U. (RAF Andover). Observers were trained at Larkhill (England); these were selected 'Other Ranks' from the Royal Canadian Air Force and Royal Canadian Artillery. The three Canadian 'Air Observation Post' squadrons operated under the command of 70 Group, RAF Fighter Command; the first two squadrons saw action while serving with 84 Group, Second Tactical Air Force.

John Maybe you should read more about RCAF ....
Here a Amazing book were you can learn many thing about it..

All the fine young eagleS
"in the cockpit with Canada,s second world war fighter pilot"
By Lieutenant-Colonel David L Bashow
Canadian Fighter Pilot and Staff Officer
Queen university centre for international Relation
USAF/GAF Fighter Weapons instructor school
And U.S Navy Fighter Weapon School (Top Gun)


Well who I should Believe ? Him or You ????

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

By the way 242 RCAF Squadron was later deCanadianized and not transform as a 400 serie...

Cheers
Eric
CFB StJean
National defence Canada....

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

No. The RAF squadrons were created by the RAF.

No. RCAF member salaries were paid by the Canadian government. RAF members, including Canadians in RAF uniforms, were paid by the UK government. Initially the aircraft and stores were solely paid for by the UK government. Later in the war the Canadian government paid part of these costs for the 400 series squadrons. They never paid any equipment costs for RAF Squadrons, including those with RCAF members, like 242 Squadron.

No. Everything in 242 Squadron, from the aircraft down to the pencils on the clerk's desk, was the property of the UK government. In the 400 series Squadrons the aircraft down to the pencils were also always property of the UK government, even when partly funded by the Canadian government.

No. It is a mistake. 242 Squadron was an RAF unit. UK founded, UK funded, UK directed.

The base library at St. Jean used to have several copies of "There Shall Be Wings" by Leslie Roberts. You should read it. In particular, look at Chapters 10 and 11, which cover the issues we are discussing here.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Bill... I never say RAF member ,RAF planes or even pencil were pay by RCAF ???
Maybe we should throw all these books in the Bin loll
I will read this one if you read Lt Col David L Bashow "All the fine young eagle"

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

VonWaffen,
I have reached the conclusion that the sole purpose of this thread is for you to shit-stir on here in order to promulgate your distorted, and incorrect, view concerning 242 (Canadian) Fighter Squadron, RAF, to give it its correct title.

While you nationalistic pride is to be admired, it is to be deplored when you try to foist upon others the notion that 242 Squadron in 1940 was 242RCAF.

Bill Walker, in post #23, has more than adequately covered all the salient points regarding 242 Squadron, RAF.

I think it is time for you to gracefully retire from this debate and admit defeat...

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

John I never try to make a fight about 242 , I was here for a pic of a plane...
Everything write in my post can be read in that book...
no were in the book RAF 242 Squadron can be read, RCAF 242 can , those are not my words but Lt Col Bashow one...however it seems to be a very serious book on any other aspect
Sorry if this bring controversy about 242 Squadron , it was not my goal...
regard
Eric

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

"...Everything write in my post can be read in that book..." That is not in dispute. That has nothing to do with your claim that 242 was RCAF in 1940.

"...no were in the book RAF 242 Squadron can be read, RCAF 242 can..." If this is what one person says, then I would counter with the words of Bill Walker in post #274: "...No. It is a mistake. 242 Squadron was an RAF unit. UK founded, UK funded, UK directed..."

You really won't let go, will you, while claiming innocence and still stating your case strongly.

Do you really think we are all daft...?

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

I ask again.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

From memory, the pilots were mostly Canadian, mostly in RAF uniforms. The ground crew and admin staff would have been straight RAF, which might have included a few Canadians in RAF uniforms.

We need to keep in mind that at this time Canadians were all British subjects, and traveled abroad with a British passport. RAF records at the time did not always identify Canadians as such.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Thanks Bill.

So to say that 242 was a Canadian squadron is utter nonsense as the personnel of the squadron were mostly British.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

Bull shit
They were Canadian because they were born in Canada and rise in Canada,living most of there life in Canada....
I do know who's national pride get he hurt here lollll
Maybe you should study the BCATP more carefully ...
Lt Col Bashow don t make any mistack at all...


Under Article XV of the Agreement, graduates from Dominion air forces were to be assigned to squadrons either formed by their own air forces, or with a specific national designation,
under the operational control of a local air force, in most cases the RAF. These became known as "Article XV squadrons." In addition, Articles XVI and XVII stipulated that the UK government
would be responsible for the pay and entitlements of aircrews trained under the BCATP. Nevertheless, these personnel and any squadrons formed for service with the RAF, under Article XV, would belong to the three Dominion air forces.
This was largely an initiative of the Canadian Prime Minister, Mackenzie King, during the negotiations with Riverdale.

During the war, 44 Canadian, 17 Australian and six New Zealand Article XV squadrons were formed. In practice – and technically in contravention of Article XV – most personnel from Dominion air forces,
while they were under RAF operational control, were assigned to British units.[3] This was generally due to practical staffing considerations. Similarly, many of the Article XV squadrons contained few airmen
from their nominal air force when they were first formed. However, by the end of the war this had generally been rectified. Canada made a greater insistence on its airmen going specifically to RCAF operational units overseas,
. ensuring that the identity of its national squadrons was preserved.


•Under the original agreement to establish the BCATP, Britain was to pay $218 million, Canada $313 million, Australia $97 million, and New Zealand $21 million. Costs, however, escalated far beyond the 1939 estimates.
In the end, Canada paid $1.6 billion of the total cost of $2.2 billion. In terms of today's money, that meant that each taxpayer living in Canada ended up contributing more than $3,000 just to pay for the BCATP.
When the BCATP came to a close on 31 March 1945, the four participating governments had spent $2.2 billion on the training plan, $1.6 billion of which was Canada's share.
After the war, the Canadian government calculated that the United Kingdom owed Canada over $425 million for running British schools transferred to Canada and for purchasing aircraft and other equipment when Britain could not provide
the necessary numbers. By March 1946, the Canadian government canceled Britain's debt, absorbing the cost itself.

I know this most be lie too
The BCATP is lie
the governemant of Canada lie to
everything who no promote your 9.95 $ 1952 book is a lie...

No Wait a minute I must be British too I was there in 1996 lollll

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

A total of 12 Canadian pilots in the Royal Air Force flew with No. 242 Squadron RAF at various times through the Battle (of Britain).

Considering that the pilot compliment of an RAF squadron was ~20 pilots.......

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

The Eagle squadrons, 71, 121 and 133 should be renamed USAAF.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

VonWaffen,

At the risk of repeating myself, I feel I have to reiterate once again the scenario in 1940.

Now please, read this carefully, and understand.

By the beginning of the Battle of Britain, many flyers, from very many different nationalities, were in the UK, for whatever reason. Some, like the Canadians, New Zealanders and Aussies and other Commonwealth countries, were there in support of the British Empire and the fight against Germany. Others, like the Poles, Czechs, French, Belgians, were there because their country had been overrun by Germany and they were fortunate enough to have escaped to Britain in order to continue the fight. Some, like the Americans, simply wanted to fly and fight, and fought alongside their English-speaking fellow pilots.

Now, all these flyers, including the Canadians in 242 before them, were incorporated into the RAF, and placed in RAF squadrons. Not New Zealand squadrons, nor French, nor Belgian, nor Polish, nor Czech, nor any other nationality. They were ALL in British RAF Squadrons. That is NOT difficult to understand.

The financial considerations and 'Agreements' have no role to play in the ACTUAL designation of RAF Fighter Command squadrons in 1940.

Now, take time to look at all the RAF Fighter Command records for the Battle of Britain. You will only see one with the RCAF designation. Yep, what I have previously stated: No1 Squadron, RCAF.

So, to reiterate, to claim that 242 Squadron RAF was 242 Squadron RCAF is totally, 100%, incorrect.

I am now of the mind to believe you are trolling this thread continually to foist your own WRONG opinion on others. Do you really think that a lot of us are so gullible as to believe what you are propounding? Do you really think that NONE of us has done ANY research into the Battle of Britain? That no one has carried out any research into RAF Battle of Britain records at the Public Record Office, now the National Archive, at Kew?

I have to say that in continuing to take the stance that you do, you are denigrating the work of a great many members who frequent this forum, and provide valued information for the benefit of other members.

Re: 242 RCAF in BOF
 

In the interest of saving members' time, I am closing this thread.
I think the facts have been established.