A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

So...Another Automatic AA weapon question: Tony Williams where are you?

Anyhow, here goes: I remember watching an old History Show ('Air Power' or 'Victory at Sea', I can't recall which) & I saw a bit about the FIRST Ploesti raid...in addition to some great gun cam film of low flying B24s under fire by fighters (first time I've ever seen German cannon fire striking the ground under an enemy aircraft-remenisent of RAF/USAAF gun cam films from later in the war) I remember seeming some sort of 'Jury Rigged' AA gun on the back of of a truck; it looked like a VERY oversided 20 mm Orlikon:It had a pintle mount; it even had those shoulder braces (I don't really know what those shoulder thingies are called)that you strapped yourself into when you used the 20 mm...the difference was there was no 'snail drum' magazine in sight and the barrel was MUCH longer; any idea what this beast was? Maybe A 30 mm MK103 'converted' to AA usage?
And what are those shoulder thingies called?

thanks, ahead of time

NickM

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

Well, it depends to a large extent to which nation the truck belonged. If German, it might well have been a 37mm Flak 37 AA gun. But, if this is taking place in Romania, it could just as easily have been a 40mm Bofors gun, which was popular worldwide.

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

I believe its a German 37mm AA cannon. I have seen the film sequence on one of my VHS tapes of the old program "Air Force"

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

Kaki & George:

A 37/40mm? On a one man pintle mount with shoulder yokes? Wow that REALLY is unusual; Kaki, just to be sure we're talking about the same thing: the truck in question looked like it was almost going to tip over?

NickM

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

Show me a pic and I could probably identify it, but it's hard to guess from your description. The most likely candidate offhand may be the MG C/30L. This was a very big 20mm cannon originally intended for aircraft use, but adapted as a Flak gun. It had the kind of shoulder supports you mention.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

Tony:

Thanks! Where you been hiding out? Anyhoo...I was sort of hoping You'd have a pic of this monster....I have no way of getting a pic of the darned thing--at least, not without violating a few copywrite laws;
As an aside, did anyone ever try to mount the MK 103 as a beltfed AA gun? And what DO they call them shoulder braces anyways?

NickM

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

First, it is not profitable for you or anyone else, second, it is fair use, third, have you checked if the stuff is copyrighted?
Aside, making an AA gun out of aircraft cannon does not make much sense due to low ballistic parameters. I am lacking vocabulary to express it in English, but no doubt Tony will explain that.

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

Hah, just kidding Frankek. The truth is, that I am not sure which of the two DVD collections ('Victory at Sea' or 'Air Power') it is...and I don't have the quid to part with just yet...in any case, if I DID have them I have no earthly idea how to do a screen capture or how to post the pic...

NickM

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

Oh, I am not sure how to produce some addtitional quids without violating copyrights of the crown, and more importantly, retaining the quality. As to DVDs, perhaps a google search will help? I did not capture any DVD but did so with mpegs and avis - you just need to download a software from the internet, there is plenty of free downloads.

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

I do have a rather poor-quality pic of the gun which I can email to you if you tell me the address. I don't offhand know what the shoulder supports were called.

Yes, the MK 103 did see some late-war use as an AA gun, called the '3 cm Flak 103/38'.

Franek, the MG C/30L was no ordinary aircraft gun: it was chambered for the same very powerful 20x138B ammo as the German Flak 30 and Flak 38 guns. It was intended for engine mounting in fighters, but only one prototype He 112 carried it, in action in Spain. It turned out to be too big, heavy and slow-firing to be of much use, so was converted to the AA role.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

Hello Tony
IIRC the 3 cm Flak 103/38 wasn't successful because it was muzzle-heavy.

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

The problem with the Flak 103/38 was that they fitted the gun into the 20mm Flak 38 mounting, which really wasn't able to cope with the much more powerful gun.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

As noted in "The Condor Legion" by Ries/Ring, about He 112 V4: "The He 112 had been in action with 1. Staffel for several weeks. Flown by Uffz. Schulz, ... it specialized in hunting Red tanks. On account of its good success the aircraft was jokingly dubbed "Dosenoeffner" (can opener). Unfortunately, in July the aircraft was written off in a crash." It appears that Schulz had popped 3 tanks with the a/c. And, it also sounds like he was more than satisfied with it. So, where did you find the contrary info?

Earlier, the following was stated about the He 112: "Fips" Radusch was selected to test the sole cannon-armed He 112. The machine was the He 112 V4 in which a 20mm MG C/30L engine-mounted cannon had been installed for trial purposes. Otherwise the fighter was unarmed. The few fighter pilots in Spain fortunate enough to fly the He 112 said great things about the He 112, and everyone wanted to qualify the fly the aircraft."

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

Who used this piece of weaponry? I was always under the impression that small calibre AA guns in the Luftwaffe were pretty well limited to the 20mm Flak 30 and 38, and 37mm Flak 37 and 43. Oh yes, and a few single- and triple-mounted MG 151/20s.

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

Tony:

Yo,My Man: my email is:

nickm@astound.net;

Send away...

hopefully my spam filter doesn't send it to 'never-never land'

NickM

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

It was good at knocking out tanks but what the Luftwaffe was after was armament suitable for air combat. You can judge their view of the MG C/30L by the fact that only the one plane was ever fitted with it, and after that they switched to the much smaller, lighter and faster-firing MG-FF.

It is possible that this was influenced by the decision to choose the Bf 109 over the He 112. Although the 109 could probably take the MG C/30L the considerable weight (about 180 kg loaded) would have hurt the performance of the little plane.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

According to Hogg, Rheinmetall-Borsig were given a contract to produce 2,000 Flak 103/38, and Gustloff another 1,000, all to be delivered by March 1945, but "it is doubtful if anything near this number were actually built". He also mentions a quad mounting, of which a few were built.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Re: A question RE: an odd looking German AA Gun...
 

I've just sent it.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum