.50 calibre rounds
 

Dear All,

This may sound like a dumb question, but Allied armament is far, far and away not my specialty. So, here goes.

An acquaintance has told me that he found .50 calibre spent rounds at Scheppach south of the Autobahn across from the Me 262 forest production facility known as Kuno I. Now, this area was heavily camouflages and there were no air attacks to the facility on the north side of the Autobahn, so the question arises as to why the south side, likely also camouflaged, might have been hit with such rounds.

The Autobahn to the west of the production facility was straight and used for takeoff, the center section having been paved over. Perhaps the rounds came from Allied aircraft straffing Me 262's on the Autobahn. But, the thought occurred to me that the rounds could have come from Allied land forces as they captured the area. If so, my question is whether any .50 calibre weapons were used by ground forces? If so, hand held, mounted on vehicles, or what?

Regards,
Richard

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Dr. R.T. Eger wrote in part:
Nearly all U.S. tanks, TDs and half-tracks had Ma Deuces as well as many deuce-and-a-half trucks, the latter having a swivel ring above the cab where the .50 was mounted. Some jeeps had a .50 too, but more often it was a.30. Generally, the line infantry advancing on foot had .30s rather than .50s.

L.

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

There was also the Quad 50, used as both as an anti-aircraft weapon and against ground targets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M45_Quadmount

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Y9hsbQC0k

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Good evening Richard !

What exactly did your acquaintance notice there:
- .50 cal bullets
- .50 cal shells
- both, shells and bullets in an even fired condition , or
- not fired .50 cal ammo

I think, if the condition of his findings are more clear, a more precise answer can be given.

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Dear All,

Thank you for the information, which seems to confirm what my acquaintance found could have been from ground fire, not straffing aircraft. Perhaps, as the U.S. Army motored down the Autobahn, they encountered enemy fire.

The image he sent to me shows 12 bullets and 2 shells.

Regards,
Richard

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Are there any colors on the bullet tips? Are there any letters/markings on the shell casings? Do the bullets appear to be armor piercing? Here is a link which gives some more info on the types of bullets.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...nitions/50.htm

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Dear RSwank,

There are definitely 2 bullets with a black tip and 1 bullet with a light blue tip. Five appear to be orange (possibly rust of steel jackets) and 2 seem to be more olive in color with a speckling of green, suggesting perhaps brass jackets. These 2 also have a single ring on the rear, possibly green or blue green. Three have double rings. Two look like they had exploded or, at the least, had hit the proverbial immovable object. In addition to these 2, a third is also missing its tip, but there isn't enough there to tell whether it had exploded.

If anyone wants to see the photo, please send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll send it to you. I'm still not conversant about posting images.

Regards,
Richard

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Richard:

THX. The black tip means armor piercing. Having witnessed firing these .50 caliper rounds, I can say they are very effective: through concrete block walls, mud hut walls, and other "stuff". I have fired M-1 Garand 30.06 armor piercing and they are very effective rounds!--shattering a 6 inch granite stone!

Follow up from an friend who commanded a tank platoon with those .50 guns. He says, blue is incendiary, red/maroon/orange is tracer. Aluminum tip or red ring is AP incendiary.

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

I spent my first two Army years in the Ordnance Corps and was assigned as a company armorer for a couple of months. I had a dozen 'fifties to maintain in the armory and fired the weapon a number of times, including on a range near Bad Kreuznach where a bunch of old junked cars and other vehicles had been towed for use as targets. The range was about 1,000 meters. In a word: mincemeat. The linked ammo was arranged 1 incendiary, 1 AP, 1 HE, 1 AP, 1 HE and then repeated.

L.

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

If I understand your descriptions correctly, you appear to have a mixture of AP (black tip), possibly incendiary with the blue tip and perhaps regular ball (no colored tips but the bullets appear to be orange or olive in color). You can click on the various images in the link I gave to get larger views of the various types. The fact that there seems to be regular ball type bullets suggests to me they were all "ground" fired as I don't think aircraft carried regular ball ammunition, it was mostly AP, with a mixture of tracers and possibly incendiary. (Perhaps some experts on fighter carried ammunition can comment on that point).

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

IIRC Armor-Piercing-Incendiary, M8 was the main type of ammo used by USAAF fighter pilots in late WWII.

Juha

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Why assume no aircraft attacks? Mustangs were strafing Linz, Eferding, Prague, Brux areas from the UK in March/April 1945.

Regards,

Bill

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Dear Bill,

Unless an Allied fighter aircraft was aiming at an Me 262 on the Autobahn, it seemed to me more likely that the .50 caliber bullets and shells were fired from the ground. Add to that that the person found both bullets and shells. If fired from an aircraft, one would think that the shells wouldn't be anywhere near the bullets. From what my acquaintance told me, the rounds were found at 2 small square structures on the south side of the Autobahn, which may have been manned guardhouses that engaged the oncoming ground forces. Finally, the Allies never knew the location of the Kuno I Waldwerk until they happened upon it - it was that well camouflaged. So, what would an Allied aircraft be doing there in the first place, unless possibly attacking an Me 262 on the Autobahn?

Thus, the preponderance of circumstantial evidence points to ground fired .50 caliber ammunition and, of course, why I asked the question in the first place.

I thank all who have helped to educate me.

Regards,
Richard

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Wasn't being critical. However, there were many attacks on Me 262s on or parked in trees near the autobahn, particularly in March/April 1945

It is more likely IMO that ground fire was the source but impossible to rule out strafing.

The other thing to consider for ground fire is that the actual projectiles should be far from the fired casing whereas a strafing run places bullets in a running pattern and closes with the aircraft possibly still ejecting casings as it continues to shoot

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Millons of .50BMG where fired over Germany, during air and ground battles.
In most cases it is nearly impossible where they cam from. What looks the headstamp at the empty cartrigdes?
The green bullet: only the tip in green or the hole bullet? (Green was AP by the britisch forces). And: the German Wehrmacht use the .50BMG (captured weapons) also, often in the AAA role. Ammo was not a big problem the USAF deliver it on an nearly daily bases (joke!)
h.

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Hello Everybody,

I am the person who found the .50 cal. Shells and bullets at the site of Kuno 1. Thank you all for your help.
Some of you asked about the “headstamp” of the shells. Both shells are stamped with “S L 43”.

I uploaded some photos of the shells and the bullets, so you can take a look at them by yourself.

Kind Regard,

Blücher


http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...ps98fb5e28.jpg

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...psd59f7b11.jpg

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

S.L. St. Louis Ammo Plant Missouri, 43 - 1943. That mean only the cartrigde is from 1943, not the complete round! So it can be fired 1943 but also in 1944, 1945!

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Did ground units use incendiary rounds?

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Yes I believe they did. Here is an example from Vietnam on how 50 cal M2s were used on trucks and how they were loaded. I don't think this was anything newly invented for Vietnam.

http://books.google.com/books?id=6Ae...tracer&f=false

They set up two types of 100 round belts. One used 2 incendiary, 2 AP incendiary, and one AP-Incendiary-tracer. The other type of belt used 4 ball and 1 tracer.


In Gordon Rottman's book on Browning 50 Caliber Machine Guns, on page 37 he mentions the standard mix for 50 cal used in an antiaircraft role as:
"At this time (early WWII) the functional ammunition mix was four ball to one tracer, two armor-piercing, two incendiary, and one tracer, which was excellent for antiaircraft use."

Re: .50 calibre rounds
 

Well, at least some of the bullets themselves have been fired. You can see the rifling on them. Also, some have impacted with an armored object.
They could be from aircraft as well as ground troops. Danny