Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

On the morning of 27September 1944 (08.25hrs) P/O Sid Bregman 441 RCAF Sqn.shot down a Bf109 in the Arnhem area. Could anybody identify the pilot, unit and Identity of the Bf109 please?
F/Lt Copeland and F/Lt Lake also claimed a Bf109 each in this incident.
Regards
Tony K

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Without a doubt combat was with II./JG 77 which suffered multiple losses.

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Thanks John, I knew that it would be a difficult question but its a great start.
Regards
Tony K

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

... And JG 4 and one JG 53 so far...

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Thank you ouidjat, do you mean those units too were involved in that particular engagement at 08.25 hrs. ?
Regards
Tony K

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Hi Tony,

I mean I have 13 Bf 109s in my little « lost list » for that day over Holland:
6 from JG 77, 4 x JG 4, 1 x JG 76, 1 x JG 53, 1 x JG 27.
Among them, in Arnhem and/or Arnhem area: 3 x JG 77, 1 x JG 53 and 1 x JG 4.
I have nothing about the time … Sorry.

Ah yes: since this list is extracted from the "on line" Holland Air force Historical blablabla (verliesregister_1944_tcm46-154755 or SGLO-Verlieslijst-T-1944-versie-05-2013-01-15) I suppose that indicated places are crash places, not necessarily the place where the fights did stand.
It is possible, though, that there is a Time indication in this list but I know I've jumped it over and I did start to update it. I haven't finished, sorry ... :)

Last minute: I did check it right now: Whatever my updates, I do confirm there is no hour given for German losses that day.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Exactly why I already said II./JG 77 is the only candidate.....

Timewise only the losses of II./JG 77 match. All other losses were at different times. Research is more than checking the internet and reading books alone....:-)))).....so, as II./JG 77 lost several a/c in the combat it is almost impossible to say who shot down who unless there are detailed descriptions in the P.E.R. of the Allied Unit involved which can be matched with known crash locations.

John

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Hi John,

In other words: "I wrote books, I know, You did read my books, but you still don't know"?

Are the documents I'm talking about above bad done because they are on Internet or were they already bad done BEFORE to be put in line??

What did they miss you know but you didn't put in your books?

You have, too, the free open democratic and simple possibility of writing when answering to such question "Only II./JG 77 was involved in air combat on that day at that time in that area" ... for example.

It's clear ... and fair.

Be good, Franck.

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Thanks Franc for that additional gen, it all helps to clarify.

John, I appreciate the difficulties of identifying just who shot down whom, but the help in identifying the units involved progresses it for me. Dare I ask, were the losses from all three staffels?
I perhaps should clarify; the questions arise as a result of research into five Spitfires IX which survived the war and were converted to two seat trainers for the Irish Air Corps. I have the histories of the Spitfires from my visits to Kew and from the Irish log books. But my lack of German is my stumbling block and too old to start learning the language now. Computer skills can best be summed up by the attached.
I ask for the patience of this forum when my other questions arise.
Thank you gentlemen.
Regards,
Tony K

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

To Tony;

Stab II./JG 77 flew with all Staffeln (5. 6. and 7.). I do not believe a 8. Staffel existed yet. Take off with 26 Bf 109 from Werl at 08.40 hours (one hour time difference with GMT so this is 07.40 hours Allied time). Losses were;

Lt. Lothar Peemüller (5. Staffel), killed, near Borken.
Hptm. Franz Hrdlicka (5. Staffel), wounded, 6 km south Bocholt.
Uffz. Walter Quandel (5. Staffel), slightly injured, 6 km south Arnhem.
Uffz. Franz Gollner, (5. Staffel), killed, Raum Arnhem-Nijmegen.
Uffz. Hans Röhrig (5. Staffel), killed, near Lobith.
Gefr. Horst Ullmann (5. Staffel), killed, Doornenburg (recovered 1993).
Gefr. Alfred Hoffschmidt (6. Staffel), wounded, Raum Nijmegen.
Uffz. Herbert Plackmeyer (6. Staffel), killed, near Borken.
Uffz. Franz Mayer (6. Staffel), missing, Raum Nijmegen.
Fj.Fw. Klaus Rüter (7. Staffel), killed, near Rhede.

II./JG 77 also claimed two Spitfires. One by Maj. Freytag (at 09.23 hrs, being 08.23 hrs Allied time) and by Uffz. Quandel at 10.00 hrs. As Uffz. Quandel was shot down also his claim must have been reported after his return to the Gruppe. Time might be approximate.

To Franck,

My statement was a general one and not specific directed to you. Also nothing to do with if I wrote a book or not. It is about doing proper research. I have noticed lately that many people on this forum only do "desk" research and not serious research. It are those that "demand" proof from the serious researcher to substantiate statements. I particular did not like the "brownish" discussion on LEMB and TOCH. Unfortunately several people who do serious research are not on this forum anymore. Why would that be?

Concerning this discussion, indeed I should have been more clearer in my initial contribution to explain why I reached that conclusion. But, on the other hand.....why would I bother answering questions at all........

Regards,

John.

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Well John,

Why answering questions at all...? That's a good question and a right one by all means. Maybe for the sake of this concept getting stranger everyday in our current world: to share?

Through sharing one can be even rewarded throughout the way the question formulated might shed some new light on informations one thinks to have gone through but turn then in a different light....bringing thus a newly won knowledge...

This happens quite frequently in my own scientific field, archaeology. It might even happen here in the forum, undoubtedly a subtle form of blessing for all passionate people who gather around TOCH. Just my two cents...

Marc

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

John, I am once again indebted to you for the additional information, much appreciated. Many thanks again.
Regards
Tony K

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Marc,

has nothing to do with not willing to share, even if it becomes more and more a one way street.....

When I read that a member tries to answer a question and if asked gives his sources and the next question is to post copies of the sources (NVM) to proof his statements while the member who posts the question does not add anything except an opinion....than I think we have reached the limit.

Tell me why would I bother to spend time to answer questions (time that you can not spend on your own research) and that would be followed up by a demand like listed above?. My gut feeling says we have too many "internet" researchers on this forum and the good ones are gone or hardly post anymore.

regards,

John

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Hopefully, there are also ground digger :D

ClinA-78

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Dear John,

May I ask why Unteroffizier Werner Gölckel is not listed here? Is that because the crash in the region of Oberhausen/Sterkrade falls outside the scope of Arnhem-Nijmegen area? Or did he not take off at 08.40 hrs?

Kind regards, Timon

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Timon,

not sure why I did not list it in 2014....probably because it was too far of...

Updating the list of II./JG 77 losses:

Uffz. Werner Gölcke (5. Staffel), slightly injured, Oberhausen-Sterkrade.
Lt. Lothar Peemüller (5. Staffel), killed, Borkenwirthe, Krs. Borken.
Hptm. Franz Hrdlicka (5. Staffel), wounded, 6 km south Bocholt.
Uffz. Walter Quandel (5. Staffel), slightly injured, 6 km south Arnhem.
Uffz. Franz Gollner, (5. Staffel), killed, Niel north of Kranenburg.
Uffz. Hans Röhrig (5. Staffel), killed, near Lobith.
Gefr. Horst Ullmann (5. Staffel), killed, Doornenburg (recovered 1993).
Gefr. Alfred Hoffschmidt (6. Staffel), wounded, Raum Nijmegen.
Uffz. Herbert Plackmeyer (6. Staffel), killed, Burlo, 8 km NW Borken.
Uffz. Franz Mayer (6. Staffel), missing, Raum Nijmegen.
Fj.Fw. Klaus Rüter (7. Staffel), killed, Vardingholt, 8 km NW Borken.

Hope this helps,
John

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Good answer John. Your Bodenplatte book is an excellent book

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Hptm. Hrdlicka's a/c crashed at Bremenhorst near Bocholt.
Hrdlicka (FSA) landed at Bungern. Time: 10.20 hrs. Wounded.
Source: Archive Bocholt.
Regards
Karl Lusink

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

From ULTRA HP 1865:

Total effort, firstly Jagdkorps II (a) on 27th 119 aircraft serviceable. Morning, JG 2 and JG 26 operated against four-engined raid. Losses: 2 Fw 190 shot down, 1 pilot killed, one wounded; 4 Fw 190 still missing on 29th. Afternoon, JG 2, JG 27 and JG 27 operated. Combat Krefeld area. Losses: 4 Me 109 still missing on 29th. Total sorties 187.

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Nick, these are numbers concerning II. JK. Of course II./JG 77 belonged to 3. JD

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Sadly, no signals of theirs were picked up.

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Nick, total sorties was 187?

Re: Identity of BF109 claim by P/O Sid Bregman 27Sept.1944
 

Yes it was. I've corrected my original post.