Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Hello

I have read that on 18 April 1941 the Bf 110 D-0 flown by Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt (23 victories, RK, killed in flying accident 1 May 1945) of 1.(Z)/JG 77 was damaged in aerial combat with a Blenheim twin-engined bomber of 141 Sqn, RAF. Although he was able to land the aircraft at Mandal the Bordfunker baled out over the sea and was lost. Is the name of this unfortunate man known? Many thanks for any help.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

1941-04-18, 2./JG 77, Bf 110 D, 3330, 40 km westlich Lister, Im Luftkampf mit 4 Blenheim über See aus der Maschine geschleudert. Bruch 20 %.
Flugzeugführer Lt Viedebantt, Helmut
Bordfunker Uffz Kind, Helmut, +

Matti

Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Hi Matti

Many thanks for the excellent help as is the norm from you in regards to this question. I greatly appreciate the time you took to look this up for me.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Matti and all

I am very puzzled by this loss.
First of all I./JG 77 had no Bf 110 listed on strength.
Secondly Prien on page 143 in JFV Vol 5 says this was a Bf 109E WNr 3330 which was lost with Uffz Helmut Kind KIA.

I note that Leo thinks the unit was 1.(Z)/JG 77, but this was not formed until June 1941 at Herdla from 2./ZG 76. (see Mikael Holm)
How this could be formed from 2./ZG 76 is not known since 2./ZG 76 had already become 5./NJG 1 on 7.9.1940 (again Holm).

I would be very happy if someone could explain the real situation in Norway at this time.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

As far as I am aware, Viedebantt's units were:
5./ZG 1, who were re-designated as:
8./ZG76 from July 1940, who were re-designated as:
5./SKG 210 from 24 April 1941.

So, the incident on 18th April 1941 would have occurred when he was with 8./ZG 76.

Bf 110 with a W. Nr. 3330 was a 'D-0' variant.

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Hello.

It would be very interesting to know when the NVM which information Matti has relayed was dated. I think that might well clear up a few things.

My idea about this is that Helmut Kind was attached to 2./JG 77 at the time of this loss, and that the confusion stems from the fact that the aircraft and the person in question in reality belonged to two different units. The loss record was also corrected twice.

I am definite about the fact that the aircraft was a Bf 110 WNr 3330 from III./ZG 76. The same aircraft has been reported as damaged on October 9th 1940 (III./ZG 76 - 10%) and June 12th 1941(III./ZG 76 - 30%).

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Wasn't there an interim unit before JG 77-Jagdkommando Kveik?

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Gentlemen

Thanks a lot for the updates. The whole incident makes much more sense now and Andreas idea sounds very plausible indeed.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Hi, Chris

Yes, there was - a unit of Staffel strength operating Bf 109s under the command of III./ZG 76. Also known as Jagdschwärme III./ZG 76.

These crews and units operated together from the same airfields and under the same command structure.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

But it's interesting that he was »geschleudert« (hurled or catapulted) from the aircraft. It's not a cause of death I've seen recorded before and not the way they usually describe a parachute jump. It is a word you might use for using an ejector seat (»Schleudersitz«) but that surely can't apply in this case. It rather sounds like he wan't properly strapped in.

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Hello, Nick.

Yes, I agree- unusual loss reason - and your translation quite accurate. To me it seems that he was thrown out of the aircraft during this aerial combat. The question is then if he really was the third person in the aircraft, or if he was temping as Bordfunker for Viedebannt on this mission.

We have seen examples of war correspondents and even ground personnel doing this in other instances.

Interesting and intriguing story - I have a document I will check for leads later this afternoon.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Andreas
I have photos from a Bf 110 man who says he was with Jagdkdo K/Zerst.Kdo Sola in 1941. Codes show 2N on the ac (such as 2N+LR, 2N+DR, 2N+DR, 2N+IR, 2N+CR)
Chris

Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Hi guys

Many thanks to all who have participated in this thread. Since there are quite a number of very knowledgeable researchers involved I will take this opportunity to ask for some clarification regarding the unit involved in this incident. Most sources state that the unit in question was 1.(Z)/JG 77. My understanding is that this unit was formed in January 1941 from a group of eight pilots with rank of Leutnant who were detached from III./ZG 76. This group included Felix-Maria Brandis from 7./ZG 76 and who later served as Staffelkapitän, Helmut Viedebantt from 8./ZG 76 and Karl-Fritz Schloßstein also of 8./ZG 76 who was appointed Staffelkapitän in March 1942. However, I have also seen information that states that the unit was never known as 1.(Z)/JG 77 but rather Zerstörerstaffel I./JG 77 and that it kept this name until January 1942 when it became Zerstörerstaffel I./JG 5. Can anyone comment on the accuracy or lack thereof regarding the above?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Hello, Leo and all.

I tend to like to go to the sources when discussing this, as some of the unit histories seem to be a bit off in the literature.

To clear this up at least a bit one have to go back to November 1940 at least. In the Vortrag (Introduction) to the strength report for the flying units of the Luftwaffe for the reporting date November 2nd 1940 one can read:

2.) Veränderungen: I./J.G.77 ist in IV./J.G.51 umbennant und den J.G.51 unterstellt.

At this point or shortly there after the 'old' I./J.G.77 becomes history - and the J.G.77 consist of Stab, II. and III. Gruppe only.

The other involved units, the Stab ZG 76 and III./ZG 76 are listed as standard
Zerstörer units operating Bf 110s. The strength report state III./ZG 76 (II./Z.G.1) indicating the historical (old) name of the unit.

The next interesting change is referred in the Vortrag for November 16th 1940. Under 2. Veränderungen:

Der III./Z.G. 76 sind je Staffel 1 Schwarm Bf. 109 E bodenständig zugeteilt.

Thus the III./ZG 76 at this point in time gets a contingent of 12 Bf 109E in addition to the Bf 110s they already have (note that the aircraft are so-called zugeteilt - not indicating that the aircraft are physically present, but they are included in the Soll-Bestand - unit strength). They have 4 Bf 109E listed on strength of which none are operational.

For the next reporting date (November 23rd 1940) there are no further changes ordered, the strength of the Bf 109E Schwärme of III./ZG 76 is increasing - they now have 11 Bf 109E and 4 pilots - but none are operational.

The full strength of the unit in this date is (Total number/Operational):

Bf 110C-1 (2/1)
Bf 110C-3 (1/1)
Bf 110C-4 (15/10)
Bf 110C-7 (1/1)
Bf 110D-0 (5/3)
Bf 110D-3 (3/3)

Bf 109E (11/0)

In addition it is mentioned as a footnote that the unit have been 'zugeteilt' 18 Bf 110D-3 and 11 Bf 109E, but these have not yet been taken over by the unit (noch nicht übernommen).

On November 30th 1940 the first Bf 109 pilots are listed as operational - in fact 10 out of 12 are listed as so - even if they still have no operational aircraft (11/0).

The Bf 110 part of the unit have plenty of aircraft though - in fact they have 17 aircraft in addition to the unit strength of 36!

The same picture with minor changes until December 21st 1940 when the first two Bf 109E are listed as operational.

In the late autumn and winter the same picture - but the number of Bf 109E in the Jagdschwärme are steadily decreasing - on January 11th 1941 ther are only 5 aircraft of which 2 are listed as operational, and 5 pilots.

The next change come as reported in the Vortrag for February 2nd 1941:

Das bisher der III./Z.G. 76 zugeteilte Jagdkommando mit einem Plansoll von 12 Bf 109 E wird in eine bei der Lfl. 5 bodenständige Jagdgruppe (I./J.G.77) umgewandelt und mit Bf 109 T ausgestattet. Sie ist bereits als besondere Jagdgruppe aufgeführt und dass Soll entsprechend erhöuht.

Thus - at this point in time the new I./JG 77 appear - formed by using the Bf 109s and pilots of the Jagdschwärme III./ZG 76 or Jagdkommando Kjevik as another name we have seen used - even if the first one is the only 'correct' name.

In the meantime III./ZG 76 live on as a Zerstörer unit.

The next change that will have influence is reported on April 5th 1940:

Mit Wirkung vm 1.4.1941 wurde der Stab K.G. 201 (Schnellkampfgeschwader) aufgestellt. Mit gleichem Zeitpunkt die bisherige Gruppe 210 (Zerstörer) in I./K.G.210 umbennant und dem K.G.210 unterstellt.

And the on the report for Stand April 26th 1941:

Aus der III./Z.G. 76 wird die II./K.G. 210 gebildet. 1 Staffel der III./Z.G.76 mit 15 Flugzeugen verbleibt bei Lfl. 5. Als Ersatz für die III./Z.G.76 tritt die K.Fl.Gr. 606 nach beendeter Umrüstung (voraussichtlich 15.5.41) zur Lfl. 5.

Thus -at the time of the loss of Helmut Kind there were only two possibilities with regards to his (and the aircrafts) unit:

III./ZG 76 equipped with Bf 110s
I./JG 77 equipped with Bf 109E (should have been Ts but they had not yet arrived)

We must also take into the account that the paper dispositions of the higher headquarters might not have reached the units on the ground.

In this case I feel I have meade the correct assumption with regards to the pilot and Bordfunker (or possibly additional third crew member) being attached to two different units - and thus the ensuing confusion more than 70 years later.

The III./Z.G.76 did not leave Norway for Landsberg-Lech until late May 1941 - when II./K.G.30 relieved them under the command of Lfl.5 - as reported in the Vortrag of May 20th 1941.



The 1.(Z)/JG 77 or Zerstörer-Schwärme I./JG 77 is attached to the I./JG 77 reporting as such from the May 24th 1941.

Hope this is of some help

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Chris!

2N being the code of the ZG 1 would fit nicely as the III./ZG 76 was formed by renaming the II./ZG 1, an order which should have been effective from July 1st 1940.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Hello Leo,

Please note that the Blenheim that hit Lt. Viedebantt´s Bf 110 certainly did not belong to No. 141 Squadron RAF. The squadron was a night-fighter unit then, equipped with Boulton Paul Defiant aircraft. Moreover, it carried out no operations on 18 April 1941 (source: www.oldrafrecords.com).

Hope this helps a little,

Ota

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

Andreas

Very interesting information indeed!
Do you agree with Mikael Holm that 1.(Z)/JG 77 was formed from 2./ZG 76 in June 1941 or should the date May 24th be considered to be correct?

Reason I bring this up is that your answer seems to indicate III./ZG 76 was somewhat oversized and in spite of all three Staffeln becoming II./SKG 210 there were enough men and aircraft to form I.(Z)/JG 77.

Holm is not consistent, since if you check what he says about 2./ZG 76 it became 5./NJG 1 when I./ZG 76 was renamed II./NJG 1 on 7.9.1940, but then again it was used to form 1.(Z)/JG 77 in June 1941. So unless 2./ZG 76 (or parts of it) lived on in Norway, 1.(Z)/JG 77 had to come out of something, unless of course it should be considered to be newly formed.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Leutnant Helmut Viedebantt - 18 April 1941
 

1949 hrs 18 Apr 41 Blenheims F, W, T, A/114 Sqn. Combat with 5 Bf 110s near Lindesnes claiming 1 prob and one dam. 3 Blenheims failed to return