Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

The Luftwaffe scored heavily against USAAF bombers during WWII but for the life of me I can't recall any historical records in which the Luftwaffe had the same success against the fighters, either escort or Tactical.

By huge I mean 20-30 victories versus a few losses like so many of the great air battles of 44. Any examples come to mind? I can think of more than a few lopsided battles in which 6-8 USAAF fighters went down but nothing really big.

Examples?

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Is it true that badly shot up and crashlanded in Britain USAF bombers (with their total loss) often were not counted as total losses and even not documented?

Marius

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Loss statistics are an entire world of it's own. Some stats show you all losses, other only the ones caused by the enemy, but not the ones which had to be written off after RTB due to heavy damage from enemy fire...

As for Allied losses, for obvious reasons, only the number of bombers lost over enemy territory (ie. known to the enemy) were announced to the public (via a radio station in Deventry). Bombers that crashed etc in England were not, to deny such an intelligence source to the enemy - hence the term Deventry figures for those stats that do not contain the complete losses.

As I recall the Brits announced to public ca 8000 bombers lost as 'deventry figures', but the actual number was 10 000+, when including those ones that fell off over England or the sea, or were so badly damaged that they were written off.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Planes that crashed in friendly territory were not counted as lost (in the sense of being missing), but as damaged beyond repair, if applicable. The numbers are shown for each raid of the 8th Air Force in the USAAF official chronology.

Bomber Command did the same, the number of bombers lost each night didn't include bombers that crashed or were scrapped on return.

As for huge Luftwaffe victories, they scored most of them in the early years of the war but then had not so much luck, so when USAAF arrived the good years were gone for Germany. Even against bombers, if you have one example with a "kill ratio" of 10 to 1 in a battle in German favor, I will be surprised. Heavy bombers were not easy targets, and even the armored fighters of the Sturmgruppen suffered from bomber return fire.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Laurent - I would tend to disagree if you want to cite actual losses recorded and carried on record vs newcast sound bites? For example Schweinfurt mission had announced losses of 60 B-17's which were as you noted those that did not cross back over the Channel to even crash land! I'm pretty sure the total number of losses, including returned but damaged beyond repair was in the 90 range.

But I am an expert on the 355th FG for example. I know what the actual number of a/c either 'lost' as in did not return, the causes and the number of 'lost' as in damaged beyond repair or destroyed in accidents, etc.

The 355th lost 191 P-47's and P-51's for all causes. 46 were destroyed in air to air combat (including one that flew all the way back to England and Crash Landed) while destroying 340, 82 to German Flak while destroying 500, 63 others to Operations (mechanical failure, landing and take off accidents, bad weather, etc) Non-Combat.

The wost air to air combat loss the 355th had was 4 on two occasions and on one of those, 2 were lost in a mid air collision diving to attack, while their best days in victories was 26, 24 and quite a few in the 10-15 range.

I've studied the other 8th AF Fighter groups and the worst air to air losses were 8 by the 20FG in Feb-44, 7 by the 4th and 55th FG (once each) and a possible 9 by the 4th on Aug-18, 1944. That is it for losses greater than 6 in air to air combat for the 8th AF Fighter Command in operations from 1942 (4th FG).

The point is that offhand I know of only one occasion in which as many as 9 fighters (six certain, 3 unknown) from one Group (4thFG 18 August 1944 - caught on deck while strafing) were lost in combat with Luftwaffe.

Was there a major battle (or battles) with other USAAF Fighter Groups that resulted in very lopsided results in favor of Luftwaffe?

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I very much doubt it, simply because any commander would wish to replace the aircraft and any crew casualties. To do that, he would have to account for the loss.

I think anyone who served in the miliitary would tell you that there were always forms to fill in whenever you wanted any piece of equipment, however small - and a Lancaster or a B-17 is not small.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Nick is absolutely correct. Thanks to the forms and records Damick was able to put it all together ranging from MARC's to Class 26's to crash landed but repairable ships - I owe both him and Peter Randall significantly for getting my 355FG/1SF(Exp)/2SF records to current status.

Which leads me to a question regarding Luftwaffe records. If, say, a 109 was badly shot up and had to crash land - but was repairable - how would they have recorded it. It would be easy to count that a/c as a 'kill' from the RAF/USAAF point of view... and gun camera or witness would truly testify that it was 'downed'.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

The problem is that an Allied claim (or an Axis one) for the matter can only in a minority of cases be linked with a known enemy loss. Most claims of WWII were done in big battles and overclaiming is rising with the size of the battles.

German loss reports will list the damage suffered by the AC by a percentage. 60% or more means the AC is destroyed or beyond repair, and this is a real (aircraft) kill.

Now the problem is that for most of the period of main USAAF activity (1944), the AC loss lists of Luftwaffe are missing from the records, only the human losses are listed, so a loss is identified only if the pilot was killed, wounded or MIA, or if a searcher has found it in another sources (logbooks, diaries, local police reports and so on).

Validating kills is a difficult process. And shouldn't be the basis for "ordering" fighter pilots. For example scoring a "real kill" against a Bf 109 was easier over UK than over France because any hit on a Bf 109 engine will force it to force land shortly after. If this was over France the AC was often repaired and the pilot unhurt most of the times. Over UK both AC and pilot were lost for the Luftwaffe. The Allied pilot responsible scored the same hits.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Luarent - Thank you. I suspected that a badly damaged Luftwaffe a/c might not have been deemed destroyed even though shot down for all the reasons you mentioned.

I know in the case of the 355th FG I analyzed each loss, each encounter report to try to figure out when "lost to unknown causes' was a.) probably air to air as in the case of a battle in which Luftwaffe fighters were clearly in the area, b.) either mechanical, weather or flak when a P-47 or P-51 went down in absence of Luftwaffe opposition depending on the area and circumstances. I believe I have erred to 'conservative' (assign loss to enemy fighter if there is a question, but probably the best that can be achieved after 60 years...

so at the end of the day the 355th FG (including 2SF and 1SF(exp) which I included as they were always supported at Steeple Morden and often flew with 355th) lost at least 28 and at most 46 to enemy fighters, mid air collisions chasing or evading fighters or flying into debris of destroyed enemy fighter.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Somewhere I have the statistical data for 1944 and first part of 1945, translated from Luftwaffe primary documents by RAF intelligence. It has summaries by theater, by a/c type, by mission and losses. What is clear is that fighter loss rates in the West were IIRC ,5 times higher in the West than in the East, even as late as early 1945, by which time I had expected the USSR would have pretty well reached parity. I will have to dig these out and summarize them, but am really deep in my Ju 88 book right now. Based on thes figures, there were no "huge" victories by the Luftwaffe after Jan 1943. The replacement rates for aircraft in the Eighth Air Force dropped steadily, but were still significant right up to the end of the war. The ratio of losses as a result of Flak versus fighters I believe is available , but of course Flak was also part of the Luftwaffe. As an individual US or GB aircrew member right up to VE day, you were still put in harm's way when you flew over enemy territory and if you were the unlucky one that day, it probably seemed like a huge Luftwaffe victory.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Correction on line 4 of my previous post, the date should Jan 1944!

AB

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I think that if you want to find scores largely in the LW's favour, you should look at North Africa...

I.E.: II/JG2, during its stay there scored more than 100 kills against the RAF, the USAAF, and the Armée de l'air, losing only 8 aircrafts in combat... (additional losses were 2 planes by accident and 10 on the ground).

I don't know exactly the scores of other units like JG 77 and so on, but a few units were able to inflict quite serious damage on the allied forces while suffering comparatively light losses...

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

The problem with the kills in North Africa is that the GAF fighters shot down mainly Allied fighters, and let the Allied bombers get through to their targets. This might be one of the reasons for the GAF High Command getting antsy about shooting down bombers and not fighters in the European air war.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Re the successes in North Africa - kills or claims?

It might be worth noting that in the JG 26 history, for the time they were fighting next to JG2, there are a number of barbed comments on which unit had the strictest approach to claims.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

The amount of overclaiming tended to depend on whether you were fighting offensively or defensively, since when a/c went down over your territory you could count the wrecks and so justify/void the claims accordingly. On the offense you needed to justfiy claims with witnesses and/or gun-camera footage, neither of which was 100% reliable.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Kolya - what are some specific days and totals claimed over USAAF fighters by either JG52 or 77 in North Africa/Sicily in 1943?

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Kolya - do you have any specific examples for the North African campaign in which the Luftwaffe matched the beating they inflicted on 4th FG on 18 August 1944 - when the 4th was caught on the deck strafing?

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I can quickly mention a handfull of dates where LW fighters achieved clear successes against their allied counterparts, but I can't get into details without doing a little more research, the days I can think of are (for II/JG2 only) :

- 9 frebruary 1943 : II/JG2 : 15-16 kills (including at least 12 P-40s and 3 P-38s) against (AFAIK) no losses - 8 on that day for Erich Rudorffer.

- 15 Feabruary 1943 : II/JG2 : 11-13 (I have diverging sources...), against, it seems, no losses...

I will look for more detailed accounts, and one must keep in mind that these are german claims which are not always confirmed by allied losses, and to make the matter worse, it appears that the allied loss list regarding combats in africa, are largley incomplete because a part of the documents were lost during or after the war...

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

kolya1, these victories was claimed by JG 2 in North Africa, fro comparing to real Allied losses, you could read Morten Jessen and Andrew Arthy's excellent book "Focke-Wulf Fw 190 in North Africa"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...176206-8353421

you would see in that time period, pilots of JG 2 submitted some very wild overclaimes

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I don't know if you would consider this lopsided, but the 474th FG did lose 11 of 23 P-38s on 25 Aug 44. It is surprising they all weren't shot down considering they were up against 75 plus Bf109s and Fw190s, some flown by top Luftwaffe aces such as Emil Lang. Cheers, Gary

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Gary - it certainly was for the 474Th..

I suspect they were caught on the deck like the 9 loss day for the 4th also, but at any rate if all those losses were air to air then they top the 4th for worst USAAF loss in the war in a single engagement.. but still not close to some of the 40-50 destroyed beatings the 357th and 56th applied to the Luftwaffe - which is what I'm trying to dig up.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

A similarly heavy loss of P.38s occurred also on June 10, 1944, when the 1st and 82nd F.G.'s targeted the Ploesti oilfields, in Rumania.
In an effort to inflict decisive damage to the oilfields, 46 bomb-carrying P-38Js of the 82nd FG, escorted by a similar number of long-range Lightning fighters of the 1stFG, took off from Foggia, in Italy. When everything was over, Rumanian and German fighters and flak claimed 51 victories, double the actual number of P-38s actually lost in this ill-fated mission. Nevertheless, the loss of two-dozen USAAF aircraft (one quarter of the attacking formation) represented a tremendous victory for the defenders (Germans and their Axis allies).

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Denes - I forgot that one despite the fact that a good friend of my Father, a Wayne Jorda, was flying the 'escort' portion of that mission. I would put it up on the wall, but loathe to rank it as fighter versus fighter when the P-38 Bombers were carrying 2-1000 lb bombs - that will definitely handicap one in a furball. Still it was a USAAF fighter. How many did the Luftwaffe lose on this mission?

Thanks,

Bill

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

The real Allied losses on that day were 3 P-40E of GC II/5
The Real Allied losses on that day were a single B-25 of 12th BG, and this bomber was more likely shot down by Stab JG 53

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

how could someone call the Sturmbock versions ?
also to have a handicap in dogfights ?
how many of the 340 airclaims (355th. ) were sturmbock´s ?
and further, were these 340 claims or kills ?

thank you

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I have heard about this mission. I think there were ~30 claims by the p-38s. Does anyone know how many of these claims were confirmed? Did the attack cause any real damage to justify the losses?

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

The German fighter units in the area claimed a total of 21 kills over the P-38s for the the loss of one Bf 109G with one other being lightly damaged. The units involved were:
II./JG 51: 1 P-38
III./JG 77: 11
I./JG 53: 6
10./JG 301: 1
IV./NJG 2: 2

The Rumanians claimed an additional 24 kills. I don't know what their losses were. One P-38 pilot claimed five Fw 190s which were actually the radial engined Rumanian fighter IAR 80.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I know there were, sometimes quite significant, overclaims but this is more than I thought, do you think the allied records are complete for these days, or could there be a few more losses ?

Honestly, I'm not too familiar to this period and theater of war, and I can't figure if this difference between records is usual or not...

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Boandlgramer - I am not familiar with the term Sturmbock but will for moment presume 'Fighter Bomber'. The P-38J of course was used in both escort and fighter bomber/jabo role. It was very rare for the P-38 to fly a high altitude level bombing mission but some were converted to have a clear nose and bombsight to guide the formation behind them.

When I alluded to the bomb carrying P-38s as being at a disadvantage because of the heavy bomb load, it really is irrelevant - just a note that the ability to aggresively turn into an attack would have been restricted by orders to perform the bombing mission - This mission certainly matches the question I posed.

As to the 355th FG. It had air claims of 365.5 Destroyed by 8th AF Victory Credit Board following WWWII.

That total was reduced to 352.5 Awards and reduced further to 340 (air to air) German aircraft destroyed in the air by USAF Credits for the Destruction or Enemy Aircraft - World War II - Study 85, released in 1978, when the USAF separated the 2SF totals from the 355thFG even though the 2SF was attached to 355FG.

The remainder were separated into Probable and Damaged to add to those totals prior to end of war. The final total was 340/23/124 for air and 502/0/321 for a/c destroyed or damaged on the ground. The 46 air losses include several from the 1SF (experimental) and the 2SF which were both stationed at Steeple Morden and maintained by 355th FG

The ground scores were awarded as destroyed only if visible evidence of a fire or explosion existed, all other hits were relegated to 'Damaged'..there wer no 'probable scores for ground destruction. A frequent tactic of 355th was for several fighters to orbit an airfield to record the fires in gun camera film for later review.

One last point. The 355thFG primary mission was escort 8AF B-17's and B-24's. Most of the ground scores were 'targets of opportunity' following escort duties when the Mustangs returned home on the deck.

The worst days for the 355th was when a flight of the 357FS was caught bombing and strafing by a force of me 109's and Fw 190's on June 7 and 3 of the four were shot down on the deck with no claims of e/a destroyed...

Several other '3 air to air loss' days occurred. 29 Jan 1944 - 3 losses for 2 destroyed, 24 April 1944 - 3 losses for 20 destroyed, 4 April 1945 - 3 losses for 7 Destroyed.

They of course had a couple of very bad days dueling with German flak - worst day 28 August 1944 losing 7 to flak while bombing/strafing marshalling yards near Metz... second worst losing 6 to flak while destroying 69 on the ground April 16, 1945 around Straubing area.

Does this help answer your questions?

Regards,

Bill Marshall

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Below is a list of MACR for 10 June 1944. All the losses for the Ploesti mission P-38's total 20. 82nd lost 7 and the 1st lost 13 that day for all causes, flak and fighters.. Still that makes the 1st a candidate for 'worst day/any group USAAF' against the Luftwaffe and maybe 20 total losses for the day the most for any USAAF Fighter Command (8th, 12th, 15th) against the Luftwaffe in air to air combat.

6/10/1944 P-47 42-8471 78 12421 6/10/1944 B-24 42-40831 868 12928 6/10/1944 A-36 42-84083 86 5550 6/10/1944 P-51 43-6776 352 486 5552 6/10/1944 P-51 43-7153 352 486 5560 6/10/1944 P-47 42-8630 353 352 5561 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25771 353 352 5563 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76501 353 352 5576 6/10/1944 P-47 43-25319 78 83 5577 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25981 78 84 5578 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26031 78 84 5579 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26149 78 84 5582 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76505 78 83 5583 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76506 78 HQ 5584 6/10/1944 P-51 42-106756 352 328 5585 6/10/1944 P-47 43-25581 353 350 5593 6/10/1944 P-51 43-24786 359 368 5594 6/10/1944 P-51 42-103329 359 368 5601 6/10/1944 P-51 43-24759 361 376 5615 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25736 78 84 5616 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26317 78 82 5617 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76547 78 82 5622 6/10/1944 P-51 43-6563 357 363 5630 6/10/1944 B-24 44-40107 448 714 5634 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28704 1 5637 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28812 1 5642 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104089 1 5665 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28536 1 5676 6/10/1944 P-47 42-75542 365 5679 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76441 366 5680 6/10/1944 P-47 42-75701 366 5681 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76201 366 5682 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76542 366 5686 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76365 371 5687 6/10/1944 A-20 43-9449 10 5688 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26037 368 5690 6/10/1944 P-38 42-67659 474 5696 6/10/1944 P-47 42-76297 365 5701 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26324 365 5702&6672 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25863 48 5708 6/10/1944 B-26 42-107574 344 5722 6/10/1944 P-51 43-6889 4 336 5725 6/10/1944 P-51 42-106669 4 336 5741 6/10/1944 P-47 43-25523 56 62 5743 6/10/1944 P-51 42-106700 339 504 5751 6/10/1944 P-47 42-7886 356 361 5757 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28821 82 5760 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28723 82 5761 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28818 82 5762 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28732 1 5763 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28806 82 5764 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28808 82 5765 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28789 82 5776 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28772 1 5778 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104072 1 5781 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104058 1 5828 6/10/1944 B-25 43-409? 310 5846 6/10/1944 B-17 42-37997 463 775 5855 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104330 1 5856 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104281 82 5857 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28741 1 5879 6/10/1944 P-47 42-26040 50 5880 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25903 50 6030 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104009 1 6036 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28549 1 6037 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28807 1 6069 6/10/1944 P-38 43-28688 95 6103 6/10/1944 A-20 43-9712 410 6169 6/10/1944 P-39 44-2454 350 6198 6/10/1944 P-47 42-27604 406 6217 6/10/1944 P-47 42-8409 406 6322 6/10/1944 P-38 42-104110 1 6345 6/10/1944 P-47 42-25895 373 9199 6/10/1944 B-24 42-78683 451

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

After some research in the Macr database I come up with 10 474th P-38's lost on 25 August.. but I have determined that there are 2 mi9ssing MACR's for the 355th so we know it is not 100% reliable, so it could be 11 as you say or a 38 went down after the encounter and was 'not missing' per se.

Still 13 for the 1st FG on June 10 seems to be number 1 on the USAAF bad day for one group if all were due to fighters (probable)... and maybe 20 for combined 82/1 FG might be overall 'worst day' air to air for the USAAF in war for one general combat engagement in any theatre.

It would also reflect the overall consistent quality of Luftwaffe in the Balkans in a time when most of the Luftwaffe leaders had been lost fighting the 8th AF in October 43-May 1944 timeframe... strictly speculation..

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Bill
Sturmbocks are heavilly armoured and armed Fw 190As to combat B-17/B-24 boxes.
A very bad day for 4 FG was also 6 June 1944. They lost that day at least 10 aircraft.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

term : Sturmbock.
Franek was a bit faster .
thanks :)

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Franek - the 4th lost a total of 7 air to air (4 confirmed, 3 probable) of the 10 total lost on 6 June 1944.

One of the probable air losses (McFarlin) was 339FG Mustang flying with 4th and with two other 4th Pilots lost to unknown causes - but conceivably air combat - two hours after the 4 Blue Flight Mustangs were destroyed. to raise the total to 7 in two separate battles. The 4th did not shoot down any that day - so it was totally one sided in favor of Luftwaffe.

Oscar Lejeunesse was shot down by flak near the Normandy beach - POW and Harold Fredericks was shot down by flak near Evreux - both around 1445 hours.

Thomas Fraser unknown causes around 0642 hours after recieving vector to Debden in heavy weather. Could have been air, could have spun in

Garbey, McGrattan, Ross, Smith were the Blue Flight wiped out by German fighters at 1840 hours in one single pass.

McFarlin (339FG flying with 4th), Sobanski and Steppe all KIA near Dreux at 2035 hours - all unknown causes but presumably air even though McFarlin was heard to say he had a bad magneto and on the way home around 2000 hours.

So, the facts are a total of 4 air absolutely sure at 1840, 3 probable air losses two hours later, two losses to flak at 1445 and one unknown in very bad weather at 0642 about summed up a very bad day for the 4th.

So - Of the 10 (maximum) Lost, two were absolutely flak and possibly 8/ probably seven/ and 4 absolutely were shot down by German fighters.. such is the difficulty in researching such events on both sides.

It would be interesting to see what claims were made for the 0600-0700 timeframe for the Luftwaffe near the Normandy beachhead to account for Fraser.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

According to Mr Clark's data, aside from a 0510 claim for Lancasters, there were no Luftwaffe claims prior to 0930, probably Cox of 430 Squadron.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

I counted in your list 14 (not 13) P-38s lost by the 1st F.G. and 7 by the 82nd F.G. However, I know of 24 P-38s lost that day over Rumania/Bulgaria.
Are all MACRs listed? Could some losses not be covered by MACR?

For sure, 9 P-38s were lost by the badly mauled 71st F.S. alone (based on the squadron's combat diary). I am wondering if all these 9 Lightnings are included in your table. Can you check it, please?

According to my information, German & Rumanian fighters and flak initially claimed a total of 51 enemy aircraft. This was later on reduced to 18 P-38s downed by fighters and 7 by flak.

BTW, I described this eventful day in my book on the Rumanian Aces, published by Osprey in 2003 (p. 48-50).

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Connected to the air battles of June 10, 1944 is this photos taken in Rumania, that depicts the wrecks of a P-38, No. 32.
Can this Lightning be identified?
Could it be P-38, Bu.No. 43-28732, of the 1st F.G.? If yes, who was the pilot?

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2710/14zq1.jpg

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Denes - you have proved that I can not count. You are correct - it is 14 1st FG P-38's downed that day.

I do not have the physical MARC's except for the 355th and quite a few from the 4th. The MARC you need for 43-28732 is No. 5762. It is possible that you could get details for this MARC and the rest on that list from USAF HRC at Maxwell Field, Alabama.

As to whether or not, that total number of 21 Missing Aircrew Reports represents all of the lost P-38's of the 82nd and the 1st, the answer is not necessarily. Possibilities for NOT preparing a MARC are usually because the subject is not MISSING - an example could be going down in the Med on the way back - a circumstance in which the aircraft was truly destroyed but the location of the pilot was not behind enemy lines.

I have several examples for the 355th in which an a/c was lost FG but serial numbers were found in Accident reports (like a mid air collision) or a mid channel ditching when no ememy fire was probable cause.

There was no MARC prepared for my father's Mustang when he was shot down by Flak on August 18, 1944 because he was rescued by Priest in another Mustang - hence not "Missing". The lost Mustang was recorded as a battle loss for the 355th FG.

The MARC to the best of my knowledge represents the record of choice for Combat losses of the USAAF.

Still that leaves you with a 4 ship gap and it would be unusual to say the least to have that many 'accidents' versus destroyed or missing by enemy action.

Still it is possible that MARC's were not done

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Kolya1, I recommand you to read "Focke-Wulf FW 190 in North Africa", the authors provided a very detail day-by-day account about the air war over North Africa related to FW 190 units, and yes, authors use both Allied and Luftwaffe records,it looks like II/JG2 submitted some very wild overclaims in that time period, it was strange, because the same units's claims in Western Europe were basically way more accurate.

Re: Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?
 

Interesting thread.

Some other dates to look at would be the actions of the US P-38 units in the MTO at the end of August/early Sept 1943. They fought a couple of sharp actions over southern Italy against gruppen from JG53 and JG77 and lost a number of a/c.

The 4th FG action on 18 August 1944 was costly, but they claimed 7 ME109s; IIRC the reported LW losses were actually higher.

For the most lopsided engagement in favor of the LW what about the II/JG26 bounce of 56FG on 26 June 1943?