Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Hi All,
I have a question about this case, and so I found the documents about the alleged Soviet shooting down Me 262 Wnr. 900284 I KG(J)54 19.02 45 in the region - Küstrin? Soviet pilot Kozedub
Is this correct claim of shooting down?
In my humble opinion, something's not right.
Please, any explanation of the matter.
Best Regards,
Jarek

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

This is not a Me 262 WNr. There were no losses of a Me 262 in this area. At least to my knowledge.

Norbert

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

There were no 900 series WN of Me262's. All unknown Me262's were assigned a 900 number on my very old Me262 list on the Storm Birds web site in order to track and categorize them. Fifteen years later, I STILL see people using 900 numbers as if they are real. Chuck Petrie (RIP) and I used to get a good laugh out of it. We stated quite plainly why a 900 number was used, but the information was still posted every where on the internet as if it was their own work.

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

All

If we disregard the WNr it is quite correct that Ivan Kozhedub claimed a Me 262 on Feb 19th. at least if we are to believe the Russians Valery Dymich and Viktor Kulikov who speculate that it may have been Uffz Kurt Lange from 1./KG(J) 54 who was shot down.

However (seems it always is) Smith/Creek state that Lange was lost on Feb 15th and of course claim that Feb 15th was the date of Kozhedub's Me 262 claim, but also make a note that "another edition of Kozhedub's autobiography gives the date of action as Feb 24."

Dan, in his Production log book, favours the dates Feb 15th and Feb19th as a back up....

Since Me 262s were lost on all three dates, I presume all I can say is that Kozhedub after all seems to have claimed a Me 262....:rolleyes:, but which one?....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Jarek,

I'm afraid the story: Soviet pilot Kozedub shot down a Me 262 at the Eastern Front near Küstrin on 19.02.45 (or on 15.02. or 24.02) is one of the many post war fairytales that were created after some beers, Wodkas or Whiskys.

- The whole KG(J)54 was intended for home defence duties, it was not active at the Eastern Front.

- Uffz. Kurt Lange died in a crash near Bad Mergentheim (south of Würzburg) on a ferry flight.

- All Me 262 losses at the three dates mentioned above happened in Southern or Western Germany. The only one more to the East was a crash by FlÜG 1 near Brielow, some 80km west of Berlin.

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284 now Kozhedub's claim honesty
 

Could well be Merlin

Just so you remember, we are talking about a claim, not verification.

Fact is the claim still stands and the victory is listed "officially" (I don't know how official this is Military wise in either the former Soviet Union or todays Russia) in his total claims.

Personally I am not able to verify (if we forget units etc) what every Me 262 built until that date was doing on either days listed, so I leave that out of the equation.

Neither am I am in any position to find out if Kozhedub's original claim documents have survived and what they actually say. Do you?

However it is interesting that you bring up the topic of Kozhedub's honesty since the German top ace Hartmann lately also got his share of criticism for his claim performance.... Care to elaborate on the topic? Would be interesting to know when the story about the Me 262 began, if it was not there from the beginning. It is also obvious the Russians themselves believe in Kozhedub's honesty, so where did they go wrong and when?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Here is mentioned this claim:

http://topwar.ru/37558-etalon-1944-goda-la-7.html

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Mikail Bykov's recently published (January) book, Vse Asy Stalina (All Stalin's Aces) does not list any Me-262 victories for Kozhedub. The entry for February 17, 1945 is for an Me-109, with a footnote (which I cannot read) referencing the Me-262 and the date of February 19, 1945. Perhaps one of our Russian readers can translate the footnote.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Hello Frank,

The translation of the footnote from Mikhail Bykov´s latest book should roughly read as follows: "in operational documents listed as "Me 109 with jet engine", subsequently changed to Me 262. The date of the combat recorded erroneously as 19 February 1945."

If I recall correctly, there were some quite long discussions about Kozhedub´s Me 262 claim on one of the Russian aviation history forums in the past, where Mikhail Bykov also posted the excerpt from 176 GIAP operational summary describing Kozhedub´s combat with "Me 109, presumably with a jet engine" on 17 February 1945. I will try to find it somewhere in my files and post it here as well. Or perhaps some of our Russian friends can help?

Hope this helps a little,

Ota

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Frank/Ota

Thanks, and interestingly a fourth date now enters the equation.
The 19th was obviously the date Kozhedub himself preferred....

Would be interesting to know if the 17th is final!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Could it have been a He 162? These do look more like a "Bf 109 with jet engine" than a Me 262, if you ask me. Also this would kina solve the location issue - as Küstrin is rather close to Parchim (I./JG 1 base in February 45) or Rostock (Heinkel factory)...

Just my two cents,
Christian

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

In fact, February 17 is the date when "Bf-109 presumably with jet engine" was mentioned in the operational report of 176 GIAP. Major Titorenko and Kozhedub shot down two of such Bf-109s in combat between 11.20-12.10 (M.T.). Kozhedub's victim crashed east of Alt-Friedland.

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

HI,
Gentlemen, thank you for your help in solving this puzzle.
So the report Kozedub is not a lot of accuracy, I'm sure this is not the Me 262 According to me very little reliable ....
Reviewing the reports actually bears the date 17.02 which talks about shooting down a Bf 109, but some time later was credited with a pen that this airplane has a rocket engine.
So you can talk about He 162 it still makes sense ....
Best Regards,
Jarek

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Thanks Nikita

I will change the date accordingly :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Nikita,
Interestingly, All Stalin's Aces does not list a victory for Dmitriy Stelanovich Titorenko (assuming that is the Maj. Titorenko you noted, but DS Titorenko was in 19 IAP/176 GIAP for the entire war). In 1945 he is shown with 2 victories, both FW-190s.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Sorry, Frank. My mistake.
Titorenko only attacked the mysterious plane. Avoiding his attack strange plane was chased by Kozhedub and crashed.
I think that this could be a Me-109 with fuel tanks on wings. Gun cameras of 176 GIAP for this period reflect several of such machines, claimed by Soviet side.

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Hi Nikita,
109s with fuel tanks on the wings? This sound also kinda strange - Can you show us some of those gun camera shots? Perhaps this would solve our mystery.

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Additional fuel tank, not on the wings. sure. That is the result of doing main job and posting here at the same time:-)).
As regards to guncams I can give only the archive reference, as I did not make photocopies of them.

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

From the Russian link (post#7)
This 109 with tanks on wings is clearly an American P-51D !

Re: Question about Me 262 Wnr. 900284
 

Nikita, Olivier

And what about a Bf109G-4/R3? Sounds familiar for both of you? (Reco version, indeed)

http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=6306 for example :)

Regards, Franck.