1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hi there Gang,

Thanks to Falcon who drew my attention to this picture, here a tough nut to crack - or not?. This eBay pic, found by Tomas Prusa, shows us a Bf 109 E-3 in its typical 1939 camouflage, sporting proudly a 6./St.G. 77 emblem! Any informations about this machine? Was it a Staffel hack?

Thanks in advance!
Marc

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hello,

This is very definitely a standard 6./StG77 insignia, which began being applied to unit Ju87B-1s about Sept., 1939, around the beginning of the war. Never seen a StG77 insignia on a Bf109. Almost makes me wonder if someone isn't playing a little Photoshop joke. It is easy enough to create such an image with this program.

I know that this is for sale on eBay, so we'll have to see what develops.

Regards,

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Thanks Larry for your swift answer... I must confess I didn't think at Photoshop for a second. To my eyes, it looks darn authentic... Ah the modern world! Looking for the developments.

Thanks again and cheers
Marc

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Marc, it don't must be an E-3. You can see the hatch for the MG 17 access on the wing. In combination with the early canopy I think an E-1 is more possible in my opinion. ;)

The picture don't looks like a Photoshop manipulation. There are no typical artefacts around the emblem... very clean photo.

Btw, the Stab/St.G. 77 got Bf 109's from 31.3.41 to 6.41... source:
http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/stg77.htm

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hello,

See my posting "PHOTO FRAUD ALERT" that I just posted on this board. I can't say for sure that this specific photo is a fraud, but today I saw another one where "the collar didn't match the cuff," to use an old saying. It was, without doubt, a Photoshop fraud. No question in that case.

More info to follow as I gather more information on this.

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hi Guys,

@Falcon; Stab St.G 77 Bf109s, maybe, but not 6./St.G 77 - as far indicated in Michael Hom's site.

And I'm afraid I do agree with Larry. Structure détails are too much outlined, specially around Karmann and the vertical panel line doesn't appear when crossing the emblem, though it's readable at the bottom and at the top.

The undercarriage bump fairing looks like it has been drawn with a graphite pencil.

Sorry David, I cannot back you on this one.

@Larry; Think you're right with that fraud alert. I did start to look for original picture, without emblem, of course.

Last about fraud.
With time, the more I'm considering that last -quite a long time ago now - Bf109k-4 picture, with tulip, the more I'm thinking it's a fake too...

Regards, Franck.

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hi Gents,

I'm back ...
This morning there was a link on eBay.de; the habitual thumbnail ... Now it's not there anymore ... Am I right? Can I have the original link please?

Regards, Franck.

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hello again,

The eBay connection for the photo with the "suspect" 6./StG77 insignia has been posted on the LEMB. I see that the seller claims that this is an original print. The other photo that I refer to in my "fraud warning" posting isn't just a case of the "collar not matching the cuff" but was an outright, high-quality fraud. It was, however, sold as a modern reproduction of a WW II original photo. This one isn't being represented that way. I can't be sure that the 6./StG77 photo is a fraud, but it certainly isn't consistent with expectations, especially with the certain insignia fraud item turning up almost simultaneously. However, if the Bf109E photo with the 6./StG77 insignia turns out to be authentic, is would certainly be unique and might command a high price at auction. So, until we know otherwise, the seller here should be given the benefit of the doubt. However, the issue remains the same since the other item was, without question, a forgery and was sold as an authentic image. If I can get permission from the holder of the other photo, I will post both the forgery and the original photos that prove it so so all can see what can be done with Photoshop--just in case you don't already know.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Looking at the image with the "photoshop issue" in mind, it strikes me that the emblem appears unusually clean compared with the surrounding parts of the fuselage side which are covered with exhaust soot along the wing root. Only the emblem seems to have been wiped clean. Definitely no poof of a forgery for sure, only a source for scepticism, so as Larry put it, the seller should be given the benefit of the doubt.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

I have been working on photoshop for a looooooooooooooooong time...and I am 99% sure that this specific image is good. My feeling is that it is a staged photo. It was not a case of, "ah let's take a photo"...they specifically wanted an pic of the emblem, and ground crew at work. As such, the emblem was cleaned to look good, a mechanic/wart was asked to make it look like he was working on the plane...and the photo was taken.

I do not see any issues or descrepancies with this image...but I do suspect it is a wartime re-print. It is quite grainy, similar to all the Russian reprints from their war archive...and there is a dark line at the top, not usually seen on original printed pics .

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

I tend to agree with you harrison987: as Jochen said, the whole emblem and adjacent area seem to have been wiped clean, and there are some water smudges on the left top of the emblem. There is a fair chance this pic is a genuine one.

Cheers
Marc

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

I agree with harrison987 in that this is a staged photo. Looks like one of many propaganda photos taken before or in the beginning of WW2. If so it should be possible to find in archives. I've started looking in some older Bf109 publications as these have a hight content of archive photos but no luck yet. I still have most of my Bf109 books boxed up why the search is limited so far. I doubt the photo is genuine but it remains to be proven. Sure looks like a copy of copy quality. The zig-zag border at the top of the emblem has a blueish tone which doesn't fit with well the b/w photo.
Let's see if we can find the original!
BR
Göran

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hi, guys!

I believe Michael Holm (or maybe a Luftwaffe clerk) made an error when the list of aircraft in Stab/SG 77 was written up.

In the unit strength returns there are no trace of Bf 109s - the only foreign birds being Bf 110s. The old ticker skipped a beat when a yellow square appeared in the strength report for 6./77 for the reporting date of June 7th 1941 - this indicates an aircraft ready for operations but of a model not assigned to the unit - sadly it is marked as being a Bf 110.

The unit had the following Soll for the period:

Stab St.G. 77:

3 Ju 87 B/R
6 Bf 110

I./St.G. 77:

3 + 27 + 9 Ju 87 B/R in Stab (3), Staffeln (27 + 9)

II./St.G. 77:

3 + 27 + 9 Ju 87 B/R in Stab (3), Staffeln (27 + 9)

III./St.G. 77:

3 + 27 + 9 Ju 87 B/R in Stab (3), Staffeln (27 + 9)

It is a fact that during this period the Ergänzungsgruppe do have a few Bf 109s, and it is not totally impossible that an instructor with a past in the II./St.G.77 decided to paint this emblem on the aircraft.

I find it unlikely that the aircraft was really operated by the 6./St.G.77, but it would be a find if it was the case!

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hello Franck.

Here is the link to the ebay auction: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Originales-Fo...#ht_958wt_1147.

Best regards
Bf 110

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Looking at the eBay photo again I see that the left side of the shield is slightly overlapping the vertical panel line which is intersecting the lower curve of the shield just before it becomes vertical. Look also at the upper part of the panel line and emblem. There is a small overlap of the panel line but no sign of a panel line through the emblem. In case it was painted over the panel line it ought to be visible even if it was close to the emblem border. To me the emblem looks like a "add on" also when looking at the photo at arm's lenght. If I'm proven wrong - so much more fun as the photo would be very unusal if so :)

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Göran,

That slight overlap over the vertical panel line is close to a clincher for me, that this is a composite done with Photoshop. No artist would do that; they would use the edge of the panel as the line-up point for the side of the artwork. Unless more photos come to light that definitively prove that this image is real, I'm concluding that it is bogus.

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

At last ... here we are!
And, as I wrote, you can compare the fairing geometry on Karman with the one on that picture, for example:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaff...item58aeea6396

Enjoy it. Regards, Franck.

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

I still disagree...

This is a staged WW2 photo...with the focal point being the emblem. As such, if the line showed up on the original, it certainly would have been touched up or removed, to make the emblem look nicer.

We are not speaking about a candid photo here, or something from a private estate. This is a specific propaganda photo...

If someone is going to falsely ADD an emblem, with all the correct shading and lighting...they can easily add one tiny line to represent the panel. That is an obvious detail, and something that certainly never would have been missed.

It is nearly impossible to match angles and lighting...so going through all that work to falsify an emblem, only to leave off one obvious line does not make sense.

I work with photoshop every day...and there is no way I would miss a detail like that.

It is not a matter of someone adding the logo and forgetting the line...it is the matter of the logo already being there, and someone REMOVING the line, so the emblem looks good.

This is an original wartime staged propaganda photo...with the focal point being the emblem...as such anything taking away from the emblem was removed.

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hptm. Graf von Schönborn-Wiesentheid flew in Poland 1939 a Messerschmitt Bf 109 escorting missions of his II./StG 77.
Hope this helps.

Regards,

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Marius, this helps. Thanks! Are photos from his plane known? What is the source of your information, please?

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Perhaps it was from stab/LG2?
StG77 was subordinated to this staff during Polish Campaign.

Regards

Robert

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

The info appears several times in original documents of StG 77. I have published one picture (code S2+) in my book "Luftwaffe nad Polska 1939 Pt.III Stukaflieger" in 2006.

Regards,

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

The proof that at least some Bf109s were attached to StG77 shortly before the outbreak of WW2 was also published in Eric Mombeek's Jagdwaffe series of books, Volume 1, Section 3, page 206, the relevant excerpt showing the apparently Bf109D-1 aircraft coded 'S2+..' is attached herewith.

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Thanks Sidney! Interesting to see that Bf 109's were indeed operated by St.G. 77; that should help to be open against this pic; I tend to think harrison987 is also correct about the posed aspect of this picture.

All we need now are some other shots of Bf 109's with their St.G. 77 emblem ;-)

Cheers
Marc

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

You are most welcome, Marc :).

I am also not exactly convinced that the photo was actually staged - I just do not see anything particularly spectacular about it worth the effort.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Here is an excerpt from an order for II./StG 77 on 1.9.1939.
"... Ich fliege unabhängig mit Me 109.
gez. Graf v.Schönborn".

Regards,

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

I would like to draw the attention to Gerhard's post here at LEMB on the subject, saying that the code on the Bf 109 starting with S2 was the pre-war code S2+Mxx used by JFS Werneuchen 1938-39 and had nothing to do with StG.77.

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

A photo from the JFS1:
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=19

Re: 1939: a stunning Bf 109 E-3 flown by... St.G 7 !
 

Hi, all.

With regards to Bf 109s operated by St.G.77 - the initial info was related to the fact that Bf 109s are listed as part of the inventory of Stab/St.G.77 from April through June 1941 on the www.ww2.dk site. That was the issue I contested.

These are the reported aircraft inventories for the Stab/St.G.77 for the period in question:

Info from www.ww2.dk:
31.3.41 - 15.4.41 Arad Ju 87B, Bf 109

Strength reports:
29.03.41 3/3 Ju 87B/R, 5/5 Do 17P, 4/4 Bf 110E
05.04.41 3/3 Ju 87B/R, 5/4 Bf 110E
12.04.41 3/3 Ju 87B/R, 6/5 Bf 110

Info from www.ww2.dk:
15.4.41 - 19.4.41 Bijeljina Ju 87B, Bf 109

Strength reports:
19.04.41 3/3 Ju 87B/R, 6/5 Bf 110

Info from www.ww2.dk:
19.4.41 - 5.41 Belgrade-Semlin Ju 87B, Bf 109
5.41 - 6.41 Argos Ju 87B, Bf 109

Strength reports:

26.4.41 4/3 Ju 87B/R, 8/3 Bf 110
3.5.41 4/3 Ju 87B/R, 8/3 Bf 110
10.5.41 4/3 Ju 87B/R, 8/3 Bf 110
17.5.41 3/2 Ju 87B/R, 7/6 Bf 110
24.5.41 3/1 Ju 87B/R, 6/2 Bf 110
31.5.41 3/1 Ju 87B/R, 6/2 Bf 110
7.6.41 3/2 Ju 87B/R, 6/2 Bf 110
14.6.41 3/2 Ju 87B/R, 7/6 Bf 110
21.6.41 3/1 Ju 87B/R, 7/6 Bf 110
28.6.41 3/2 Ju 87B/R, 6/3 Bf 110
5.7.41 3/1 Ju 87B/R, 6/4 Bf 110

There is no evidence that the unit reported having Bf 109's in their inventory from April 1940 through August 1941 (I have just checked my notes on unit strength reports - I have not made notes pre April 1940 for obvious reasons - being Norwegian).

Regards,
Andreas B